@divegeester saidWhen Lewis talked about his faith, it seemed more heartfelt and resonant than when Pence does.
Which Christian do you admire more, John Lewis or Mike Pence?
@divegeester saidJohn Lewis' life has service to others as its foundation.
Which Christian do you admire more, John Lewis or Mike Pence?
Mike Pence is more about service to self.
@suzianne saidI am willing, for the sake of debate, to accept Pence's self-identification as a Christian at face value.
Mike Pence is more about service to self.
Having said that, I am personally not sure how much admiration he deserves as a Christian [specifically] in light of how often he has to say patently untrue things for the purposes of his career as a retail politician, especially cleaning up [read: doubling down] for his boss.
The same. of course, might be said about a lot of politicians, but it didn't seem to be the case so much with John Lewis.
In addition to every Christian action (see 1 James 1 for a concise definition, “This is religion,pure and undefined...), John Lewis took darshan (meeting with a Holy saint, particularly of Hinduism) and received her blessing, which ALWYS comes in the form of an holy embrace...I don’t thing we’ll be seeing Pence doing the same, even when the requirements of social distancing are lifted.
Vice President Mike Pence is said to be ~ and describes himself as ~ a devout Christian but he is in an unenviable position - to my way of thinking - when he is defending the demonstrably untrue things the U.S. President sometimes says.
Even if you don't believe the president lies and you don't think that the vice president says anything dishonest when he comments on what the president has said, just for the sake of argument, let's say he does.
And, for the sake of argument, let's not make it a party political thing: let them be from whatever party. Let it be just the same question with a Biden figure "covering" for an Obama figure. Indeed, imagine, if you want, that Pence is a John Lewis, who is the hypothetical vice president to a lying Mrs Clinton/
If a purportedly devout Christian like Mike Pence knowingly "bears false witness" [lies] for years and years - maybe 8 years under Trump, followed by maybe another 8 years as president [let's say, for the sake of argument, that's what pans out], and he does this, willfully and consciously, because he sees it as a necessary part of making his political activity successful, is this morally unsound behaviour [or "sin" if you prefer] mitigated or absolved if Pence [or a Biden or a Lewis or other Christian politician] sincerely intends, all along, to repent for it after the 16 years are over?
This question is not meant to be about the nitty-gritty of U.S. politics; it's meant to be about morality and devout religious belief in the context of retail politics.
@hakima saidWhile I think it's good to respect other faiths, receiving blessings from other faith traditions can be highly inappropriate.
In addition to every Christian action (see 1 James 1 for a concise definition, “This is religion,pure and undefined...), John Lewis took darshan (meeting with a Holy saint, particularly of Hinduism) and received her blessing, which ALWYS comes in the form of an holy embrace...I don’t thing we’ll be seeing Pence doing the same, even when the requirements of social distancing are lifted.
If Pence doesn't do this for his strong convictions that is not appropriate to be criticized.
You'd be bigoted for telling Muslims that they must violate their norms to gain approval. Why is it positive to tell Christians to do the same?
@philokalia saidIs bigotry a Christian 'norm'?
While I think it's good to respect other faiths, receiving blessings from other faith traditions can be highly inappropriate.
If Pence doesn't do this for his strong convictions that is not appropriate to be criticized.
You'd be bigoted for telling Muslims that they must violate their norms to gain approval. Why is it positive to tell Christians to do the same?
I would argue that it is not, so I believe you are barking up the wrong tree here.
@philokalia saidIf a Jew or a Muslim stood for election in a secular country like the U.S. and were elected to national office ~ like a president or vice president ~ why would it be "highly inappropriate" for them to receive blessings from, say, Christian voters or Christian religious leaders in the country they govern?
While I think it's good to respect other faiths, receiving blessings from other faith traditions can be highly inappropriate.
What would be the loss or damage or risk to anyone?
Wouldn't such a gesture be highly appropriate in a diverse, secular, non-theocratic state?
@philokalia saidTalking of violating Christian norms, do you think Pence and/or Lewis may have done this [sometimes/a lot] in order to gain the approval of those in their political bases?
You'd be bigoted for telling Muslims that they must violate their norms to gain approval. Why is it positive to tell Christians to do the same?
@suzianne saidIt actually goes back to this for Christians:
Is bigotry a Christian 'norm'?
I would argue that it is not, so I believe you are barking up the wrong tree here.
No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.
1 Cor. 10:20
This is not racial at all, for the first Christians regarded the Greek gods themselves as demons, and many of the stories around Emp. Julian the Apostate affirm that the Greek subjects writing about their Emperor did indeed feel that way about the Roman gods.
I believe it is the case that Muslims would say that Hindus and some of the other religions are practicing shirk.
It is bigotry to say that the Christians and Muslims must consent to foreign religious traditions or be bigots when it is clearly against what they believe is true of the spiritual world.
@philokalia saidBy the way, God is not a bigot either.
It actually goes back to this for Christians:
No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.
1 Cor. 10:20
This is not racial at all, for the first Christians regarded the Greek gods themselves as demons, and many of the stories around Emp. Julian the Apostate affirm that the ...[text shortened]... itions or be bigots[/i] when it is clearly against what they believe is true of the spiritual world.
"This is not racial at all."
Not all bigotry is racial. One can be intolerant of anything unfamiliar. Of course, some even manage to be intolerant of the familiar.
One can be tolerant of those who follow a different religion just as easily as one can be tolerant of those not like themselves. Tolerance does not mean that one must adhere to that religion, just as one does not have to become another race in order to be tolerant. Give others the freedom you demand for yourself, and suddenly, everyone can get along. It's not that difficult, and in fact, this should be easier for those who actually follow Jesus, because this is as he preached, to love thy neighbor [even if he doesn't look like you, or worship like you].
@suzianne saidYes, you are supposed to love your neighbor, no matter what...
By the way, God is not a bigot either.
"This is not racial at all."
Not all bigotry is racial. One can be intolerant of anything unfamiliar. Of course, some even manage to be intolerant of the familiar.
One can be tolerant of those who follow a different religion just as easily as one can be tolerant of those not like themselves. Tolerance does not mean t ...[text shortened]... his is as he preached, to love thy neighbor [even if he doesn't look like you, or worship like you].
... and...
No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.
1 Cor. 10:20
The meaning of that passage is pretty clear.
@philokalia saidWhich Christian do you admire more, John Lewis or Mike Pence?
You are supposed to love your neighbor, no matter what.