1. Subscriberduecer
    anybody seen my
    underpants??
    Joined
    01 Sep '06
    Moves
    56453
    10 Aug '09 15:11
    Mr. Mills, an Oxford scholar, produced a work in the late 17th century identifying 30,000 variations in the known Biblical texts. That number has since ballooned to over 150,000. In light of the numerous variations, how can any one group lay claim to absolute authority of God's word?
  2. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    10 Aug '09 15:161 edit
    Originally posted by duecer
    Mr. Mills, an Oxford scholar, produced a work in the late 17th century identifying 30,000 variations in the known Biblical texts. That number has since ballooned to over 150,000. In light of the numerous variations, how can any one group lay claim to absolute authority of God's word?
    You mean like how you and Jaywill do saying that Christ is God ... and thats the definite truth, and anyone who says Christ is the son of God and a separate and distinct entity, you say of them that they cant be Christian? That kind of claim ?

    Well you are guilty. At least with verses like this ..

    1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

    ... you should admit that you cant be sure, becuse Paul sure as hell aint supporting any claim that Christ and God is the same.

    God is the Head of Christ , the same way
    Christ is the Head of Man,
  3. Subscriberduecer
    anybody seen my
    underpants??
    Joined
    01 Sep '06
    Moves
    56453
    10 Aug '09 15:191 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    You mean like you and Jaywill do saying that Christ is God ... thats the definite truth, and anyone who says Christ is the son of God and a separate and distinct entity, you say of them that they cant be Christian? That kind of claim ?

    Well you are guilty. At least with verses like this ..

    [i]1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of ever ...[text shortened]... ist and God is the same.

    God is the Head of Christ , the same way
    Christ is the Head of Man,
    I like the discussion.
    There is a chance that I am wrong, of course there is also a chance that I am right. When scripture fails when must look at the apostolic tradition of the church for clarity.

    edit: Titus 2:13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

    2Peter !:1Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
    To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

    In both cases the rules of Greek grammer refer to the same person since the adjective “our” precedes two
    nouns connected by a conjunction.
    we can go round and round on this one.
  4. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    10 Aug '09 15:22
    Originally posted by duecer
    I like the discussion.
    There is a chance that I am wrong, of course there is also a chance that I am right. When scripture fails when must look at the apostolic tradition of the church for clarity.
    I notice you like to claim you are right. You never claim that you could be wrong in the matter of whether or not Christ is God.
    Did you not once claim that anyone who does not believe that Christ is God is not a Christian?
    I think that says that you not only are sure that you are right, but that Christ will not accept variations to what you believe.
  5. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    10 Aug '09 15:24
    Originally posted by duecer
    I like the discussion.
    There is a chance that I am wrong, of course there is also a chance that I am right. When scripture fails when must look at the apostolic tradition of the church for clarity.

    edit: Titus 2:13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us fr ...[text shortened]... “our” precedes two
    nouns connected by a conjunction.
    we can go round and round on this one.
    Good, then you cannot claim that you are right.
    You should realise that the matter is inconclusive.
    If you were right Paul would never say that God is the head of Christ.
  6. Subscriberduecer
    anybody seen my
    underpants??
    Joined
    01 Sep '06
    Moves
    56453
    10 Aug '09 15:24
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I notice you like to claim you are right. You never claim that you could be wrong in the matter of whether or not Christ is God.
    Did you not once claim that anyone who does not believe that Christ is God is not a Christian?
    I think that says that you not only are sure that you are right, but that Christ will not accept variations to what you believe.
    I believe I just did in the post you replied to. However, when the theological waters are muddied with poor translation, we MUST rely on apostolic traditions.
  7. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    10 Aug '09 15:25
    Originally posted by duecer
    I believe I just did in the post you replied to. However, when the theological waters are muddied with poor translation, we MUST rely on apostolic traditions.
    Would you say that this passage is poorly translated ?

    1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
  8. Subscriberduecer
    anybody seen my
    underpants??
    Joined
    01 Sep '06
    Moves
    56453
    10 Aug '09 15:32
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Would you say that this passage is poorly translated ?

    1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
    1. it's not wether the translation is accurate or not, there are likely different greek texts altogether.
    2. exegetically what does this passage mean? is a better question.
    3. how does your reference differ from the following? 2Peter !:1Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
    To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
    4. which one should be given more credance?
  9. Subscriberduecer
    anybody seen my
    underpants??
    Joined
    01 Sep '06
    Moves
    56453
    10 Aug '09 15:34
    any thoughts on John Mills Raj?
  10. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    10 Aug '09 15:39
    Originally posted by duecer
    any thoughts on John Mills Raj?
    Dont have a clue who that is. Sorry, will have to do some research.
  11. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    10 Aug '09 15:43
    Originally posted by duecer
    1. it's not wether the translation is accurate or not, there are likely different greek texts altogether.
    2. exegetically what does this passage mean? is a better question.
    3. how does your reference differ from the following? 2Peter !:1Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
    To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
    4. which one should be given more credance?
    I would say Paul should be given more credence if there appears to be an apparent conflict. If it cant be resolved I would simply call it inconclusive. Going back to apostolic tradition is pointless in my opinion and carries the same problems as reading and interpreting the Bible.
  12. Subscriberduecer
    anybody seen my
    underpants??
    Joined
    01 Sep '06
    Moves
    56453
    10 Aug '09 15:54
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I would say Paul should be given more credence if there appears to be an apparent conflict. If it cant be resolved I would simply call it inconclusive. Going back to apostolic tradition is pointless in my opinion and carries the same problems as reading and interpreting the Bible.
    was not Peter (which means rock) the rock upon whom Christ built his church?

    Is this one from Titus better because it was written by Paul? Titus 2:13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
  13. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    10 Aug '09 16:02
    Originally posted by duecer
    was not Peter (which means rock) the rock upon whom Christ built his church?

    Is this one from Titus better because it was written by Paul? Titus 2:13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
    What part of that conflicts with

    "1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
  14. Joined
    11 Nov '05
    Moves
    43938
    10 Aug '09 16:24
    If I would see the bible as holy, or as if it was the very true word of god, then the only alternative is the original writings. Not the endless chain of translations and copyings.
  15. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    Royal Oak, MI
    Joined
    09 Sep '01
    Moves
    26187
    10 Aug '09 16:31
    Originally posted by duecer
    Mr. Mills, an Oxford scholar, produced a work in the late 17th century identifying 30,000 variations in the known Biblical texts. That number has since ballooned to over 150,000. In light of the numerous variations, how can any one group lay claim to absolute authority of God's word?
    Of all the ancient biblical manuscripts that we have in our possession, no two are exactly alike. Every one contains differences, errors, or forgeries.
Back to Top