John Mills

Mr. Mills, an Oxford scholar, produced a work in the late 17th century identifying 30,000 variations in the known Biblical texts. That number has since ballooned to over 150,000. In light of the numerous variations, how can any one group lay claim to absolute authority of God's word?

Originally posted by duecer
Mr. Mills, an Oxford scholar, produced a work in the late 17th century identifying 30,000 variations in the known Biblical texts. That number has since ballooned to over 150,000. In light of the numerous variations, how can any one group lay claim to absolute authority of God's word?

You mean like how you and Jaywill do saying that Christ is God ... and thats the definite truth, and anyone who says Christ is the son of God and a separate and distinct entity, you say of them that they cant be Christian? That kind of claim ?

Well you are guilty. At least with verses like this ..

1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

... you should admit that you cant be sure, becuse Paul sure as hell aint supporting any claim that Christ and God is the same.

God is the Head of Christ , the same way
Christ is the Head of Man,

Originally posted by Rajk999
You mean like you and Jaywill do saying that Christ is God ... thats the definite truth, and anyone who says Christ is the son of God and a separate and distinct entity, you say of them that they cant be Christian? That kind of claim ?

Well you are guilty. At least with verses like this ..

[i]1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of ever ...[text shortened]... ist and God is the same.

God is the Head of Christ , the same way
Christ is the Head of Man,

I like the discussion.
There is a chance that I am wrong, of course there is also a chance that I am right. When scripture fails when must look at the apostolic tradition of the church for clarity.

edit: Titus 2:13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

2Peter !:1Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

In both cases the rules of Greek grammer refer to the same person since the adjective “our” precedes two
nouns connected by a conjunction.
we can go round and round on this one.

Originally posted by duecer
I like the discussion.
There is a chance that I am wrong, of course there is also a chance that I am right. When scripture fails when must look at the apostolic tradition of the church for clarity.

I notice you like to claim you are right. You never claim that you could be wrong in the matter of whether or not Christ is God.
Did you not once claim that anyone who does not believe that Christ is God is not a Christian?
I think that says that you not only are sure that you are right, but that Christ will not accept variations to what you believe.

Originally posted by duecer
I like the discussion.
There is a chance that I am wrong, of course there is also a chance that I am right. When scripture fails when must look at the apostolic tradition of the church for clarity.

edit: Titus 2:13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us fr ...[text shortened]... “our” precedes two
nouns connected by a conjunction.
we can go round and round on this one.

Good, then you cannot claim that you are right.
You should realise that the matter is inconclusive.
If you were right Paul would never say that God is the head of Christ.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I notice you like to claim you are right. You never claim that you could be wrong in the matter of whether or not Christ is God.
Did you not once claim that anyone who does not believe that Christ is God is not a Christian?
I think that says that you not only are sure that you are right, but that Christ will not accept variations to what you believe.

I believe I just did in the post you replied to. However, when the theological waters are muddied with poor translation, we MUST rely on apostolic traditions.

Originally posted by duecer
I believe I just did in the post you replied to. However, when the theological waters are muddied with poor translation, we MUST rely on apostolic traditions.

Would you say that this passage is poorly translated ?

1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Would you say that this passage is poorly translated ?

1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

1. it's not wether the translation is accurate or not, there are likely different greek texts altogether.
2. exegetically what does this passage mean? is a better question.
3. how does your reference differ from the following? 2Peter !:1Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
4. which one should be given more credance?

any thoughts on John Mills Raj?

Originally posted by duecer
any thoughts on John Mills Raj?

Dont have a clue who that is. Sorry, will have to do some research.

Originally posted by duecer
1. it's not wether the translation is accurate or not, there are likely different greek texts altogether.
2. exegetically what does this passage mean? is a better question.
3. how does your reference differ from the following? 2Peter !:1Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
4. which one should be given more credance?

I would say Paul should be given more credence if there appears to be an apparent conflict. If it cant be resolved I would simply call it inconclusive. Going back to apostolic tradition is pointless in my opinion and carries the same problems as reading and interpreting the Bible.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I would say Paul should be given more credence if there appears to be an apparent conflict. If it cant be resolved I would simply call it inconclusive. Going back to apostolic tradition is pointless in my opinion and carries the same problems as reading and interpreting the Bible.

was not Peter (which means rock) the rock upon whom Christ built his church?

Is this one from Titus better because it was written by Paul? Titus 2:13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

Originally posted by duecer
was not Peter (which means rock) the rock upon whom Christ built his church?

Is this one from Titus better because it was written by Paul? Titus 2:13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

What part of that conflicts with

"1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

If I would see the bible as holy, or as if it was the very true word of god, then the only alternative is the original writings. Not the endless chain of translations and copyings.

Originally posted by duecer
Mr. Mills, an Oxford scholar, produced a work in the late 17th century identifying 30,000 variations in the known Biblical texts. That number has since ballooned to over 150,000. In light of the numerous variations, how can any one group lay claim to absolute authority of God's word?

Of all the ancient biblical manuscripts that we have in our possession, no two are exactly alike. Every one contains differences, errors, or forgeries.