To how many does the Bible hold out hope of heavenly life?
Luke 12:32: “Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of
giving you the kingdom.” - Christ taught that there were two flocks, a little one and
another one, unspecified in size.
(John 10:16) “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I
must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one
shepherd. . .
Rev. 14:1-3: “I saw, and, look! the Lamb [Jesus Christ] standing upon the Mount
Zion [in heaven; see Hebrews 12:22-24], and with him a hundred and forty-four
thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.
. . . And they are singing as if a new song . . . and no one was able to master
that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the
earth.”
Are the 144,000 only natural Jews?
Rev. 7:4-8: “I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four
thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: . . . Judah . . . Reuben . . .
Gad . . . Asher . . . Naphtali . . . Manasseh . . . Simeon . . . Levi . . . Issachar . . .
Zebulun . . . Joseph . . . Benjamin.” (These cannot be the tribes of natural Israel
because there never was a tribe of Joseph, the tribes of Ephraim and Dan are not
included in the list here, and the Levites were set aside for service in connection with
the temple but were not reckoned as one of the 12 tribes. See Numbers 1:4-16.)
Rom. 2:28, 29: “He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that
which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and
his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code.”
Gal. 3:26-29: “You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus.
. . . There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is
neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus.
Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with
reference to a promise.”
Is the number 144,000 merely symbolic?
The answer is indicated by the fact that, after mention of the definite number
144,000, Revelation 7:9 refers to “a great crowd, which no man was able to
number.” If the number 144,000 were not literal it would lack meaning as a contrast
to the “great crowd.” Viewing the number as literal agrees with Jesus’ statement at
Matthew 22:14 regarding the Kingdom of the heavens: “There are many invited, but
few chosen.”
Do those of the “great crowd” referred to at Revelation 7:9, 10 also go to heaven?
Revelation does not say of them, as it does of the 144,000, that they are “bought
from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion. Rev. 14:1-3.
The description of them as “standing before the throne and before the Lamb”
indicates, not necessarily a location, but an approved condition. (Compare
Revelation 6:17; Luke 21:36.) The expression “before the throne” (Greek, enopion
tou thronou; literally, “in sight of the throne&rdquo😉 does not require that they be in
heaven. Their position is simply “in sight” of God, who tells us that from heaven he
beholds the sons of men. Ps. 11:4; compare Matthew 25:31-33; Luke 1:74, 75; Acts
10:33.
The “great crowd in heaven” referred to at Revelation 19:1, 6 is not the same as the
“great crowd” of Revelation 7:9. The ones in heaven are not described as being
“out of all nations” or as ascribing their salvation to the Lamb; they are angels. The
expression “great crowd” is used in a variety of contexts in the Bible.
source Jehovah witnesses.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYour source is mistaken. This has already been explained to you, but you refuse to learn the truth, so live in your deceit as you wish.
To how many does the Bible hold out hope of heavenly life?
Luke 12:32: “Have no fear, [b]little flock, because your Father has approved of
giving you the kingdom.” - Christ taught that there were two flocks, a little one and
another one, unspecified in size.
(John 10:16) “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those ...[text shortened]... ession “great crowd” is used in a variety of contexts in the Bible.
source Jehovah witnesses.[/b]
Originally posted by robbie carrobieRobbie, what do you make of the fact that the Watchtower brought out a magazine
“Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true.”
I think it was may 15 1984 showing 16 people on the cover who were from the 1914 generation. It declared that this generation shall see the end times.
They have all passed away and we are still here.
The Watchtower keeps changing the date of the end of the world.
They have been wrong many times.
Originally posted by johnnylongwoodyactually Johny me ol son, we constantly revise our teaching, 'the generation', that you
Robbie, what do you make of the fact that the Watchtower brought out a magazine
I think it was may 15 1984 showing 16 people on the cover who were from the 1914 generation. It declared that this generation shall see the end times.
They have all passed away and we are still here.
The Watchtower keeps changing the date of the end of the world.
They have been wrong many times.
speak of is not defined as being part of a generation from 1914, thats old hat mate, its
now taken to mean a generation not at any specific time but which has witnessed such
events as those mentioned in Matthew chapter 24, from where the term 'generation
comes from'. Even so i am sure there are not a few persons from 1914 who are still
alive. We have never claimed to be infallible, unlike the pope, the fact that we have
made mistakes is indicative of what, that we are fallible, so what? were not the
disciples of Christ also fallible? did they not also make mistakes? have you never
made a mistake?
here is a piece of advice for you Johnny,
(Matthew 24:36) “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels
of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI've made plenty
actually Johny me ol son, we constantly revise our teaching, 'the generation', that you
speak of is not defined as being part of a generation from 1914, thats old hat mate, its
now taken to mean a generation not at any specific time but which has witnessed such
events as those mentioned in Matthew chapter 24, from where the term 'generation
c ...[text shortened]... of Christ also fallible? did they not also make mistakes? have you never
made a mistake?
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Originally posted by robbie carrobiesorry to drag up old issues, especially during a relatively peaceful day on the forum. you adamantly defended a j.w. translation in the bible regarding messianic prophecies. when i pointed out that other faiths and denominations had different translations and asked how could you be sure you had it right. your answer was that you had the best scholars and it was impossible that you could have it wrong. you now seem to be saying the j.w's are fallible like everyone else and can make mistakes. are you now willing to admit that there is a possibility that one or more j.w. biblical translations could be wrong?
actually Johny me ol son, we constantly revise our teaching, 'the generation', that you
speak of is not defined as being part of a generation from 1914, thats old hat mate, its
now taken to mean a generation not at any specific time but which has witnessed such
events as those mentioned in Matthew chapter 24, from where the term 'generation
c ...[text shortened]... and hour nobody knows, neither the angels
of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.