Judgments - One or Two?

Now this passage in Matthew 25:31-46 has often been APPLIED in the way of showing charity to human beings. And there is nothing really wrong with applying the passage in that way.

But here I am not applying the passage. I am interpreting the passage.

In the great tribulation the nations will have to make some decision in the fully polarized circumstances - HOW should they treat the total outcasts under Antichrist's reign ?

2. The judgment seat of Christ takes place in the air - thats a story

That is correct. After all the raptures and before Christ descends He holds the marriage feast and the judgment seat of Christ in the air near the surface of the earth.
He is concealed from the world hidden in a cloud.

In Revelation 17 and 19 those who accompany Christ DOWN to the battle of Armageddon do so as a result of having been REWARDED to do so. Thus reward of discipline has to have taken place before Christ descends.

"These [Antichrist and his armies] will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings;

and they who are with Him, the called and chosen and faithful, will also overcome them." (Rev. 17:14)

That means that ACCOMPANYING Christ the warring Lamb are the overcoming saints who are rewarded the honor to win the final battle with Antichrist. They are not only called and chosen. But they have added to this [i]FAITHFULNESS. In other words they were faithful to all of their calling.

The same thing is seen in Revelation 19. Christ comes down to earth accompanied by a Bridal army. They are rewarded to conquer and reign with Christ because they are overcoming saints, ie. normal.

This is brief. But this is reliable. I don't back down for a minute. And whatever your Sunday School experience was or your Vacation Bible School experience was as a kid makes no difference to this sound understanding of prophecy.

3. All Christians will mature in the milennial age - thats a story

Fact: Some saints are rewarded and some are not during the millennium.
Fact: By the time of the new heaven and new earth ALL saints are perfected.

So all perfecting, sanctifying, maturing, building, transformation, conformation, has to be completed by the time of this eternal age. And it FOLLOWS the one thousand year millennium.

Between the millennium and the eternal age it DOES say that Satan will be loosed for a little season. No one I know knows how long that "a little while" will be. That is an UNKNOWN.

" And cast him [Satan] into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, that he might not deceive the nations any longer UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE COMPLETED; after these things he must be loosed for a little while." (Rev. 20:3)

"And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison

And will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war ... etc. " (Rev. 20:7-8)

I don't know how long this "little while" lasts.
I've never met anyone who thought they knew.

But by the time of the new heaven and new earth ALL Christ's saints have been perfected. So all time of discipline has to be temporary for them and concluded.

Originally posted by sonship
Sorry, I'm not impressed with your dubious Sunday School days. I can back up what I wrote. And you've given no reason so far why I should abandon what I briefly explained.

Not for your sake but for some reading along then:

1. Matt 25 is about Christians escaping the tribulation - thats a story

Your skepticism here means nothing to ...[text shortened]... persecute Me?" Saul also didn't realize that he was touching the very brothers of Christ.[/b]

A nice story for Christians. I mean it matches your false doctrines to a T. So the typical Christian doctrine goes like this:
- Profess your belief with your mouth and you are saved eternally. Nothing else is required. During the tribulation, nonChristians who help you out will enter the Kingdom of God. If you sinful and evil you get another chance in the millennial age.

Thats all BALONEY .. but you are entiled to believe it.

The truth is that Jesus said throughout his ministry, that love God and your neighbour as yourself is the way to the Kingdom of God. The example of the Good Samaritan, the story of the rich man and lazarus is another... ALL who do good works [tribulation included] and live righteously will enter the Kingdom of God.

Originally posted by sonship
Now this passage in [b]Matthew 25:31-46 has often been APPLIED in the way of showing charity to human beings. And there is nothing really wrong with applying the passage in that way.

But here I am not applying the passage. I am interpreting the passage.

In the great tribulation the nations will have to make some decision in the fully polarized cir ...[text shortened]... aints have been perfected. So all time of discipline has to be temporary for them and concluded.[/b]

A whole pile of statements made.
You quote 2 passages.

NOTHING in the 2 passages match even remotely your statements and conclusions.

Nothing about judgment seat in the clouds
Nothing about marriage feast in the air
Nothing about concealed in a cloud
Nothing about Saints being perfected in the millenium.

However the Bible does say that evil Christian saints will be destroyed .. not perfected.

Originally posted by Rajk999

The truth is that Jesus said throughout his ministry, that love God and your neighbour as yourself is the way to the Kingdom of God. The example of the Good Samaritan, the story of the rich man and lazarus is another... ALL who do good works [tribulation included] and live righteously will enter the Kingdom of God.

Arguably the most central message of the entire bible.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Arguably the most central message of the entire bible.

The most central message from the most central character about the most central purpose of the bible.

"Now the God of peace, He who brought up from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great Shepherd of the sheep, in the blood of the eternal covenant

PERFECT you in every good work for the doing of His will, doing in us that which is well pleasing in His sight through Jesus Christ, to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen." (Heb 13:20)

I'm through here.

Originally posted by sonship

[b] "Now the God of peace, He who brought up from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great Shepherd of the sheep, in the blood of the eternal covenant

PERFECT you in every good work for the doing of His will, doing in us that which is well pleasing in His sight through Jesus Christ, to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen." (Heb 13:20)

I'm through here.[/b]

Well it's all a nice story. You could sell it to a movie producer and collect some money. Apart from that most of it is just lacking in biblical support.

More importantly the problems associated with judging everyone as told in Matt 25 were ignored by you.

The lake of fire event is at the end. There is no restored kingdom for the sheep to enter.

One thing which you do not realise is the restoration of Israel is not the Kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world in which the sheep enter.

Originally posted by Rajk999

For the sake of others reading this discussion:

Well it's all a nice story.

I don't take [b]Hebrews13:20 as just "a nice story". I take it as God's word counteracting you lie that He does not perfect His saints - all of them.

You could sell it to a movie producer and collect some money. Apart from that most of it is just lacking in biblical support.

Your lie was that God does not perfect His saints.
The truth of God is that He does.

"Perfect you in every good work for the doing of His will, doing in us that which is well pleasing in his sight through Jesus Christ; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen." (See Heb 13:21)

Fortunately we have God's word to counter your lies.

Another counter to your slanderous lie is John 17:23 - Jesus' mighty prayer that all the believers be PERFECTED

'I in them, and You in Me, that they may be PERFECTED into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me." (John 17:23)

Thank God we have His word and His mighty petition that all the saints be PERFECTED. This counters your doctrine of demons that God does not perfect His saints.

More importantly the problems associated with judging everyone as told in Matt 25 were ignored by you.

No they weren't.

The lake of fire event is at the end. There is no restored kingdom for the sheep to enter.

Another ignorant delusive lie from you.

Christ plainly invites them to enter into the restoration in Matthew 25:34.

"Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." (v.34)

The Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory from the beginning of "the restoration"

"and Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the RESTORATION, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matt. 19:28)

The verse only highlights the renewal of the the kingdom of Israel as one aspect of that restoration of the earth.

Matthew 25:31-46 deals with the same restoration period when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory. Only that this passage expands to deal with the nations living on the earth at that time.

"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him, at that time he will sit on the throne of His glory. (Matt. 25:31)

One thing which you do not realise is the restoration of Israel is not the Kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world in which the sheep enter.

The restoration of Israel is one PART of that restoration.

You don't realize or want to learn that when Jesus descends from Heaven He brings WITH Him some overcoming saints. And in Matthew 25:31-46 besides the sheep and the goats Jesus is referring to some of these brothers of His who accompany Him. Some of them were martyred in the great tribulation and are now with Him and about to be rewarded.

This passage has to do with the great tribulation and Christ's descent to fight for Israel.

And you will flee into the valley of My mountain, for the valley of the mountains will reach unto Azel; yes, you will flee, just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah the king of Judah.

And Jehovah mu God will come, and all the saints with Him." (Zech. 14:5)

The prophecy of Jude also says Christ will come WITH saints.

"And Enoch the seventh from Adam, prophesied also of these, saying, Behold, the Lord came with myriads of His saints." (Jude 14)

The coming of Christ with His saints means that as He sits on the throne of His glory He has a third group with Him to point to besides the sheep on His right hand and the goats on His left hand.

The coming of Christ WITH His saints proves that this reward has been given to them AFTER they have been evaluated at His judgment seat.

Since He comes DOWN to the earth WITH these rewarded saints, this proves that the Judgment Seat of Christ is not on the earth's surface.

After all raptures there is the Judgment Seat of Christ for reward or discipline in the air. The rewarded saints come down with Christ to the earth. These are the overcomers among the saints which come "WITH HIM".

The prophet Joel also said God descends with His mighty ones - not just angels but overcoming saints thus rewarded to fight with Him and reign with Him. If not all the nations will gather at the Holy Land, a large representative group will.

"Hurry and come, All you surrounding nations, And be gathered. There cuase Your mighty ones to descend, O Jehovah!

Let the nations rouse themselves and come up to the valley of Jehoshophat for I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations. " (Joel 3:11,12)

Nothing about judgment seat in the clouds
Nothing about marriage feast in the air

As long as the rewarded saints are seen DESCENDING with Christ, we know that their standing before Him to be judged as believers took place after all raptures and before He sets down again on the earth.

I could defend the pavilion of a cloud hiding Christ from view to the earth. But I will not at this time. Read Psalm 18. Read it carefully.

Nothing about concealed in a cloud
Nothing about Saints being perfected in the millenium.

I dealt with it. You just are too thickly veiled to see it.

However the Bible does say that evil Christian saints will be destroyed .. not perfected.

The destruction of the old man is PART of their perfecting. Whether this destruction is willing during the age of grace or more of a discipline during the age of the millennium is up to the saints.

Every saved person will eventually be perfected and conformed to the image of the Son of God as the Firstborn among many brothers. The lie that Christ will not perfect His saints is corrected by many verses included Hebrews 16:20,21, which like a blind fool you compared to a Hollywood production.

Originally posted by sonship
For the sake of others reading this discussion:

[b]Well it's all a nice story.

I don't take [b]Hebrews13:20 as just "a nice story". I take it as God's word counteracting you lie that He does not perfect His saints - all of them.

[quote]
You could sell it to a movie producer and collect some money. Apart from that most of it i ...[text shortened]... ncluded Hebrews 16:20,21, which like a blind fool you compared to a Hollywood production.[/b]

More nice stories for the deluded Christian. Twisting a verse here and a passage there ..

Perfecting of the Saints Jesus said there are some Christian saints who were evil and their names would be removed from the book of life. So while there are some Saints who will be perfected, there are some who will be removed and destroyed. Jesus will judge .. not you.

Matt 25 You say Christ plainly invites them to enter into the restoration in Matthew 25:34..

Christ plainly invited the righteous sheep into the Kingdom of God prepared from the foundation of the world. Christ did not invite them into the restoration. Read it again. Nothing about restoration. The restoration and the Kingdom of God are two different things. The kingdom of God is the New Jerusalem and this only appears at the end of the reign of Christ. The restoration is the 1000 reign which comes first and then the Kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world appears.

The Matt 25 passage has nothing to do with Christians fleeing the tribulation. At least the Bible says nothing. That is all your fabricated stories.

Your doctrine is just a pile of hollywood drama.

Originally posted by Rajk999
More nice stories for the deluded Christian. Twisting a verse here and a passage there ..

[b]Perfecting of the Saints Jesus said there are some Christian saints who were evil and their names would be removed from the book of life. So while there are some Saints who will be perfected, there are some who will be removed and destroyed. Jesus will judge ...[text shortened]... othing. That is all your fabricated stories.

Your doctrine is just a pile of hollywood drama.[/b]

You are still ignorant.

Anyone having his name erased from the book of life can only have that situation temporarily.

It is the equivalent of suffering loss but himself being saved yet so as through fire.

The passage in the NT about not having a name erased from the book of life does not mention evil per se. The issue with the defeated Christians in the church in Sardis (Rev. 3:1-6) is spiritual DEADNESS. This means being religious but devoid of spiritual life and vitality in the Holy Spirit.

It is spiritual deadness that is the cause of the erasing of the defeated believer's name from the book of life. Granted, continued sinning may of course cause spiritual deadness.

You are reading INTO the passage the issue of sinning. But the emphasis of the context is not so much on sinning or evil doing but on spiritual DEADNESS.

"And to the messenger of the church in Sardis write: These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars:

I know your works, that you have a name that you are living, and yet you are dead." (v1)

Christ does not say "You are evil" here. Neither does He say "You are sinful."
Your kind of legalism reads that into the passage.
The issue is that in spite of a religious reputation of being living they are spiritual DEAD.

This is why Christ addresses them as the one Who has the seven Spirits of God. But I will not elaborate on this for you now.

What the church in Sardis did have as flowing from the Lord Jesus WAS ... about to also die. In other words they were empty and religious living off their vain reputation but they were apart from the living Spirit of Christ - spiritually defiled with death.

"Become watchful and establish the things which remain, which were about to die; for I have found none of your works completed before My God."

Because of their spiritual deadness Christ warns them that they run the risk of being left on earth when He comes in the first sudden and secret rapture of overcoming saints.

"Remember therefore how you have received and heard, and keep it and repent. If therefore you will not watch, I will come as a thief, and you shall by no means know at what hour I will come upon you." (v.3)

Millions of Christians living only off a great religious reputation in the world will be shocked by Christ's sudden rapture. They will not have been watching and will be left on the earth to pass through the great tribulation.

They are spiritually deadened though enjoying a reputation of being Christians.
The leaving of them at rapture to mature during the great tribulation is a discipline of love. But it IS a discipline.

And the warning of them having their names erased from the book of life is ALSO a discipline of love. Yet it IS a discipline and a temporary suffering of loss.

"He who overcomes will be clothed thus, in white garments, and I shall by no means erase his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father and before His angels.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (vs.5,6)

The white garment is white because of the absence of spiritual deadness. This letter is about the defiling of spiritual deadness.

It should cause the Christian to consider his or her need to repent of deadness spiritually. It should cause the Christian to realize that spiritual deadness is defiling and soiling on the Christians expression. It should inspired the Christian to want to return to watchfulness and living as if the Lord Jesus might come upon him or her at any moment.

This is the normal Christian walk - to walk with the Spirit of Christ in a living way with a sober watchfulness that Christ EXPECTS the believers to by living in His presence every moment.

In the case of this church as in all the churches in Revelation 2,3 there is the call and hopeful prediction that some in the surrounding degradation will overcome.

In Sardis these Christians were not defiled by spiritual death. And they will be counted as overcomers.

"But you have a few names in Sardis who have not defiled their garments, and they will walk with Me in white because they are worthy." (v.4)

I am not saying that backsidden-ness into sinning has nothing to do with spiritual damage. I am saying that the emphasis in this passage is on discipline because of spiritual deadness here more so than because of evil doing

God hates spiritual death more than He hates sin.
Spiritual death is defiling of the Christians' "garment".
White garments signify spiritually living and vital - full of Christ flowing out in one's expression.

Months ago it was already proved to you that of the twelve tribes of Israel, Dan, because of their idolatry, had their names temporarily erased from the list of the twelve tribes. But it was written back in. The same principle applies with the eternally redeemed being disciplined with being excluded from the millennial kingdom reward.

Apparently many spiritually deadened Christians will suffer the loss of the discipline of the erasing of their names from the book of life for a dispensational and temporary time.

Originally posted by sonship
You are still ignorant.

Anyone having his name erased from the book of life can only have that situation temporarily.

It is the equivalent of suffering loss but himself being saved yet so as through fire.

The passage in the NT about not having a name erased from the book of life does not mention evil per se. The issue with the defeated Christian ...[text shortened]... them as the one Who has the seven Spirits of God. But I will not elaborate on this for you now.

If ignorance is defined by my ability to resist your nonsense doctrines, then thanks for the compliment.

You and the creators of your doctrine are taking it upon your shoulders to proclaim that all Christians are going to enter the kingdom of God, by the method of giving them another chance after they die to live in the millennial Kingdom. This is not in the bible. Its your fantasy.

Some Christians are eternally redeemed.
Some are not ..
Christ will judge
its that simple

Originally posted by Rajk999

You and the creators of your doctrine are taking it upon your shoulders to proclaim that all Christians are going to enter the kingdom of God,

The writer of First Corinthians the Apostle Paul wrote under inspiration of God that
ALL Christians will be saved. Some will be rewarded and some will suffer loss yet still be saved.

"if anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.

if anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." ( 1 Cor. 3:14,15)

You don't see much of the corporate nature of God's will to BUILD the church.
You don't see how the Christian's living is a building work.

You don't see that of all those saved some will be rewarded upon the second coming and the following thousand years and some will still be saved YET suffer loss.

Not one argument you have ever put forth against this has had enough strength to churn the inside of a garbage pale. You're out of your league.

by the method of giving them another chance after they die to live in the millennial Kingdom. This is not in the bible. Its your fantasy.

You don't even understand really what has been said.

Only a remnant of overcoming saints will participate in the millennial kingdom.
They will come from the Old Testament dispensation and the church age - the New Testament dispensation. What binds them together is that they are overcomers - normal - victorious as partakers of God's grace.

Go back and read the story of Gideon's little army of 300 hundred. The same principle is repeated elsewhere in the history of God's people. From the majority only a remnant, a minority are normal overcoming partakers of God's enabling grace.

You must hate the words "... but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." .
You must hate that God remains FAITHFUL to Himself.

You also don't understand God's great wisdom. The preliminary reward of one thousand years still give time (yet under a different dispensation) for the sons of God to be matured and corrected.

You're mad because God does things in His way and not according to your way.
It has been proved to you before that the discipline of Christ's servants is limited and bounded in time. It is UNTIL a certain thing. That means the suffering of loss or dispensing of discipline in love is temporary.

And it will be influenced by how merciful a servant of God was to fellow servants of God.
As you measured out to others YOU will be measured.
As you were merciful with others YOU will obtain some mercy.

If you were strict and exacting towards everyone else but loose and accommodating always having mercy on your self, woe to you at the judgment seat of Christ for His people.

Are you sure you are saved ?
Are you sure you even know the Lord Jesus ?