Judgments - One or Two?

Originally posted by Rajk999

Rajk999 has a faulty interpretation allegedly proving one judgment has to be at one time of a typical 24 hour day.

The Bible speaks, many times of
- the great day of the Lord
- the great day of judgment
- God has appointed a day to judge all men

The following verse proves that when it comes to resurrection and judgment, an "hour" in Revelation encompasses a period of time spanning one thousand years.

" Do not marvel at this, for an HOUR is coming in which all in the tombs will hear His voice.

And will come forth: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment." (John 5:28,29)

This "HOUR" spans one thousand years because in Revelation 20 the two resurrections are separated by one thousand years.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God and of those who had not worshipped the beast ... ;

and they LIVED and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

THE REST OF THE DEAD did not live again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection." (Rev. 20:4-5)

1.) The overcoming saints of Jesus Christ are here resurrected and JUDGMENT was given to them (v.4).

2.) One thousand years latter another group of human beings are resurrected. (v.5) ...

"The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed."

Revelation 20:4,5 prove that John 5:28,29 indicates the usage of HOUR but actually sixty minutes is not meant by Christ. One thousand years would be (24 hours x 365 days x 1,000 years = 8,760,000 hours ).

Once again see how Jesus used the word hour.

" ... for an hour is coming in which all in the tombs will hear His voice and will come forth: those who have done good to the resurrection of life;

And in this hour a thousand years latter another resurrection -

" ... and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment [or condemnation]"

Originally posted by sonship
Rajk999 has a faulty interpretation allegedly proving one judgment has to be at one time of a typical 24 hour day.

The Bible speaks, many times of
- the great day of the Lord
- the great day of judgment
- God has appointed a day to judge all men

The following verse proves that when it comes to resurrection and judgment, an [b] ...[text shortened]... those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment [or condemnation]" [/quote][/b]

The low and deceitful tactic of trying to change the topic because you have nothing of value to add to the topic at hand, is really one of the worst of human weaknesses. You have no conscience and no balls.

I have never, neither will I ever make any comment on that foolishness of which you speak in the quoted post...

The issue Mr Crooked Christian, is WHEN DOES THE MATT 25 JUDGMENT OCCUR.
The correct answer is AT THE END OF THE 1000 YR REIGN OF CHRIST

Revelation 20 supports Matt 25 in every respect, and it shows that without a doubt that what I am saying is correct.

Here it is again:
1. Jesus returns, the dead in Christ are resurrected and they reign with Him for 1000 yrs.
2. Jesus reigns and puts down all opposition
3. The rest of the dead are raised AFTER THE 1000 YRS
4. The great white throne judgment {Rev 20], also called the throne of his glory [Matt 25], now takes place
5. The righteous enter the Kingdom of God / New Jerusalem
6.. The evil are cast into the lake of fire, and are destroyed.

Mr Lee has led you astray. Try reading your Bible.

Originally posted by Rajk999

The low and deceitful tactic of trying to change the topic because you have nothing of value to add to the topic at hand, is really one of the worst of human weaknesses. You have no conscience and no balls.

Frothing at the mouth like this doesn't add any strength to your case.
Resorting to "street talk" doesn't do anything to show a resurrection and judgment at the beginning of the millennium is followed by a resurrection and judgment one thousand years latter.

Revelation 20:4,5; comp. John 5:28,29.

I have never, neither will I ever make any comment on that foolishness of which you speak in the quoted post...

Am I suppose to be impressed with your inability to refute me here?
Revelation 20:4,5 has two resurrections and two judgments. Between them is one thousand years.

Now I do not say that the first resurrection is the same matter of Matthew 25:31-46. That I am not claiming. But I am pointing out that there are two judgments separated by one thousand years.

Judgments - One or Two? is thus answered by me from the Bible. The answer is " More than just One judgment."

The issue Mr Crooked Christian, is WHEN DOES THE MATT 25 JUDGMENT OCCUR.

So we come back specifically to the judgment of Matthew 25:31-46, a judgment which is amply foretold in the Old Testament also.

It does not concern the DEAD. It concerns those LIVING. Specifically people LIVING on the earth through the great tribulation and are ALIVE when Christ descends again on the earth.

Matthew 25:31-46 is not the judgment of the great white throne in Revelation 20 And neither is it "the judgment seat of Christ" for the church.

My answer to the question of the OP is "More than just One Judgement"

The correct answer is AT THE END OF THE 1000 YR REIGN OF CHRIST

No. The Judge gathering all the nations [Gentiles] means living people (Matt.25:32).
The Judge before all the dead great and small (Rev.20:11) is different.

Revelation 20 supports Matt 25 in every respect, and it shows that without a doubt that what I am saying is correct.

It is not correct. It is superficial and shortsighted.
It is a novice understanding.

Here it is again:
1. Jesus returns, the dead in Christ are resurrected and they reign with Him for 1000 yrs.
2. Jesus reigns and puts down all opposition

The term "the rest of the dead" show that not ALL the dead are raised at the time of the great white throne judgment. One thousand years PRIOR some dead were raised.

"The REST OF THE DEAD did not live again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection." (Rev. 20:5)

It is very clear. Two resurrections separated by one thousand years.

Now the prior resurrection included a judgment and reward.

"And I saw throne, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them ..." (Rev. 20:4)

Could anything be clearer?
This judgement and reward is a result of the resurrection and rapture of the saints in the church.

These are the THIRD group TO WHICH the living sheep and goats of the living nations are examined against. In Matthew 25:31-46 there are actually THREE groups not TWO.

1.) The sheep
2.) The goats
3.) These, the brothers of Jesus down to the least of them.

This is brief.
HOW the Lord's brothers (down to the least of them) were treated by the other two groups, the sheep and the goats, is the basis of that judgment.

This is judgment pertaining to the transitional time of the great tribulation.
And the warnings what to do were preached by the angelic voice supernaturally from the air. You must pay close attention to the preaching of "an eternal gospel" to fear God the Creator announced supernaturally by an angel in Revelation 14:6-7.

This is not the same as the Gospel of Grace preached during the church age.
This is a Gospel to the world's inhabitants during the great tribulation to prevent those who will listen from worshipping the Jew and Christian persecuting Antichrist who makes himself out to be god. Rather they should listen to their conscience and worship the true Creator of the universe.

This is a brief explanation.

"
3. The rest of the dead are raised AFTER THE 1000 YRS

To the question Judgments - One or Two? the answer HAS to be be "More than One Judgment".

The two resurrections are each accompanied by a JUDGMENT and separated by one thousand years.

Do you think God will resurrect some saints and postpone their judgment for one thousand years? It not only makes little sense to believe that. It is also not what the Bible says. Once again:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and JUDGMENT WAS GIVEN TO THEM... and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed."

And the rest of the dead are seen standing before the great white throne to be judged in verse 11.

'And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose face earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them ... And the dead were JUDGED..." (See Rev. 20:11,12)

4. The great white throne judgment {Rev 20], also called the throne of his glory [Matt 25], now takes place

That is an interpretation. But it is not a good one.
Of course it is valid to say Christ on a throne is always glorious.

Its right only in a superficial way. And it does nothing to negate that the "judgment" [ given to the saints in Rev. 20:4 ] and the judgment given to the rest of the dead in Rev. 20:11,12 are separated by one thousand years at least.

And if you don't like brother Witness Lee for some prejudiced reason, learn from others. For example "The Judgment Seat of Christ" by D.M. Panton would help you.

Originally posted by sonship

[b] "
3. The rest of the dead are raised AFTER THE 1000 YRS

To the question Judgments - One or Two? the answer HAS to be be "More than One Judgment".

The two resurrections are each accompanied by a JUDGMENT and separated by one thousand years.

Do you think God will resurrect some saints and postpone their judgment ...[text shortened]... arn from others. For example "The Judgment Seat of Christ" by D.M. Panton would help you.[/b]

You can pretend that you dont know what Im talking about all you like. Goes to show that you are very crooked or very stupid, or both Your choice.

Of course there are many judgments. There is however only ONE JUDGMENT, which the Bible refers to is different ways
- the judgment seat of Christ
- the great day of the Lord
ONE JUDGMENT in which all nations are gathered - both good and evil and judged, and this happens at the end of the 1000 yrs. This is described in Matt 25 and in Rev 20.

The resurrection and judgment at the start of the 1000 yrs is for the Saints of Christ only.

Originally posted by Rajk999

You can pretend that you dont know what Im talking about all you like. Goes to show that you are very crooked or very stupid, or both Your choice.

I am not "pretending" anything.
It is possible that I have not understood you well.
That may not be all my problem.

One more time.

Of course there are many judgments.

Then Judgments - One or Two is answered by YOURSELF - you just said "Of course there are many judgments"

Now don't get angry with me for what you just said.

There is however only ONE JUDGMENT, which the Bible refers to is different ways
- the judgment seat of Christ
- the great day of the Lord
ONE JUDGMENT in which all nations are gathered - both good and evil and judged, and this happens at the end of the 1000 yrs. This is described in Matt 25 and in Rev 20.

No I am definitely NOT PRETENDING. You are wrong.
I just understood exactly what you wrote and it is wrong.
No pretending involved

I have already labored to show you Matthew 25:31-46 is not the same judgment as the great white throne in Rev. 20:11,12.

So you can stuff your silly words back into your own mouth that I and pretending or being deceitful about anything.

The resurrection and judgment at the start of the 1000 yrs is for the Saints of Christ only.

The judgment seat of Christ does not take place on the earth.
The judgment seat of Christ takes place in the air before Christ descends to earth.

The Judgment seat of Christ will have NO unbelievers there.
Judgment begins at the house of God. And Christ first judges those who should know the truth. That is His own household.

No one is condemned to eternal perdition at the judgment seat of Christ.
Some saints are rewarded and some will lose the reward and suffer loss.

When Christ descends TO the earth BEFORE He sits on the throne of His glory in the Holy Land the judgment seat of Christ will have already been concluded.

When Jesus refers to these the least of my brothers in Matthew 25 He is not speaking about the sheep and he is not speaking about the goats. He is speaking about those who have already been examined at the judgment seat of Christ.

We have thought about these things much more carefully than you realize.

Let this sink into your ears. Without "the judgment seat of Christ" there can BE no millennial kingdom. The millennial kingdom of one thousand years is precisely BECAUSE there was prior to it a Judgment Seat of Christ.

I am not clear whether or not you envision some kind of reign of one thousand years apart from saints being rewarded WITH that one thousand years. Sometimes it seems that that is what you said. I could be mistaken though.

When Jesus comes back down to the surface of the earth there are saints who come with Him. And there are people living on the earth when He comes. Some of those living will be transferred from one age into the next age - the millennial kingdom.

Some of the saints rewarded to come with Christ TO reign will be co-kings over these people - "sheep" for one thousand years.

The most non-traditional thing about this proper understanding is that some people will be alive and allowed to enter into eternal life as inhabitants for that restored earth. It doesn't say eternal life entered into them. But they enter into a realm of everlasting blessing.

Hardly any evangelical Christians can believe that God will transfer some people who are alive on the earth into the millennial kingdom in this way. These transferred peoples are not constituents of the church.

That is very hard for some Christians on this side of the Reformation to understand.
THREE GROUPS are implied in the judgment of Matthew 25:31-46.

1.) "Sheep" from the Gentile nations before the millennium.
2.) "Goats" from the Gentile nations before the millennium.
3.) The Lord's brothers, down to the least of them before the millennium.

The Lord's brothers who are rewarded will reign with Him for one thousand years.
That is a judgment for them.
And those over whom they reign have undergone a judgment to be on a restored earth for that thousand year reign.

Neither of these judgments are the great white throne judgment after the millennium upon the rest of the dead.

Originally posted by sonship

This typo needs clarification.
I MEANT to write this:

This is a Gospel to the world's inhabitants during the great tribulation to prevent those who will listen from worshipping Antichrist whose society will severely persecute the elect Jews and the Christians, The Lord's brothers down to the least of them.

Antichrist makes himself out to be god. Responders to an 'eternal gospel" will rather listen to their conscience and worship the true Creator of the universe. The refugees - the Lord's brothers down to the least of them, will be assisted by those who respond positively to the preaching of an eternal gospel to fear God the Creator.

No one taught me the following. But I think the passage is relevant that he who receives a prophet because he is a prophet shall obtain a prophet's reward.

King James Bible - Matt. 10:42
And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Perhaps this is the principle that will be in play in the great tribulation. Some among the nations will recognize that whoever these persecuted people are, they are related to God in some way. Not knowing that they are brothers of Christ, they will render them aid as they are terribly persecuted by Antichrist.

This necessitates that there will be realms on the earth not fully under the control of Antichrist into which persecuted Jews and Christians might flee.

The society that follows Antichrist will consider these holy people a public nuisance and enemies of their modern society and will persecute them. Their only "God" is Antichrist. And his dictates of not allowing any purchase of food or clothing or any necessities by those who do not have his mark, will produce refugees, sick, prisoners, ill-clothed, chased, hunted, murdered, and driven out of society. (Matt. 25:31-46)

The people who treat them kindly will receive a prophet's reward because they assisted them. They go into the millennial kingdom.

Followers of the Antichrist go to eternal punishment.

That was a long correction.

Originally posted by sonship
This typo needs clarification.
I MEANT to write this:

This is a Gospel to the world's inhabitants during the great tribulation to prevent those who will listen from worshipping [b]Antichrist whose society will severely persecute the elect Jews and the Christians, The Lord's brothers down to the least of them.

Antichrist makes himself out ...[text shortened]... ollowers of the Antichrist go to eternal punishment.

That was a long correction.[/b]

I have some comments on your long posts prior to this one but this last post is pure guesswork + jigsaw doctrine of trying to fit unrelated pieces of a puzzle together. The end result is obviously going to be gibberish.

First Matt 10:42 is the conclusion of a long list of instructions to his twelve disciples, who he sent out to preach to the Jews only. This has no connection with his return.

As for your continued attempt to fit some tribulation story with Matt 25, that is a hopeless case. That makes no sense. Of course if you want to believe that you can but it just imaginative storytelling.

Throughtout the teachings of Christ all he ever preached is good works, charity, giving to the poor, helping the needy. This is not a case of just in the tribulation whoever helps Christians then they get into the Kingdom. This is utter foolishness you are talking. This shows how far you are away from Christ... you have no shred of understanding of what Jesus was about.

Matt 25 is the natural conclusion of the what Jesus said throughout his teachings.

The idea that Jesus would say only those who help out Christians in the tribulation would enter the Kingdom of God, could only be conceived by a selfish Christian who thinks that he has a monopoly on Christ.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I have some comments on your long posts prior to this one but this last post is pure guesswork + jigsaw doctrine of trying to fit unrelated pieces of a puzzle together. The end result is obviously going to be gibberish.

First Matt 10:42 is the conclusion of a long list of instructions to his twelve disciples, who he sent out to preach to the Jews only. T ...[text shortened]... God, could only be conceived by a selfish Christian who thinks that he has a monopoly on Christ.

The restoration follows the great tribulation. It is at that time Christ comes back to earth to sit upon the throne of His glory.

"And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed me, in the restoration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matt. 19:28)

"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him, at that time He will sit on the throne of His glory." (Matt. 25:31)

The conclusion of the great tribulation and the Battle of Armageddon is with the Son of Man sitting on "the throne of His glory" in Israel.

G,H, Lang writes:

The restoration shall be "in the place " where God disowned them (Hos. 1:10), Unquestionably this is Palestine.

Ezekiel 37:21,22 shows the locus of the restoration is in the Holy Land.

"And you shall say to them, Thus says the Lord Jehovah, I am about to take the children of Israel from among the nations, where they have gone, and I will gather them from all around and bring them into their own land.

And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel, and one king will be king to all of them ..." (Ezek. 37:21,22a)

Christ sets up the throne of His glory in Israel at the commencement of the restoration.

At the throne of His glory in Israel after the great tribulation multitudes are judged by Him in the valley of Jehoshaphat. But I gave you these verses before. Christ in His second coming descends to the Holy Land, in Israel. And from that center He conducts many world changing decrees from the throne of His glory there.

Originally posted by sonship
The restoration follows the great tribulation. It is at that time Christ comes back to earth to sit upon the throne of His glory.

[quote] [b] "And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed me, in the restoration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of ...[text shortened]... And from that center He conducts many world changing decrees from the throne of His glory there.

I have no problem with that.
When Christ returns he will return to Israel
Christ is the King of Israel first.
Christ sits on Davids throne.
Christ will rule from Israel.
Christ will rule with the Christian Saints.

Where did I say I have a problem with any of that.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I have no problem with that.
When Christ returns he will return to Israel
Christ is the King of Israel first.
Christ sits on Davids throne.
Christ will rule from Israel.
Christ will rule with the Christian Saints.

Where did I say I have a problem with any of that.

You confused the judgment of Matthew 25:31-46 with the judgment at the great white throne in Revelation 20. Worst still, you seemed to confuse both of them with "the judgment seat of Christ."

The three judgments are historically in this order:

First - the judgment seat of Christ occurs after all the raptures. It is in the air. And its result determines who among all the saints will accompany Christ to the battle of Armageddon and touch down upon the earth to be co-kings with Christ.

Second - the gathering of nations before the throne of Christ's glory is a gathering of living Gentile (nations there is the same word for Gentiles). They are not resurrected. They are living at the time Christ descends. They are living inhabitants of the earth that survived through the great tribulation. The saved among them will be transferred into the millennial kingdom age.

Third - After the millennial kingdom age and after the final rebellion the dead, the rest of the dead will appear at the judgment, the last judgment, at the great white throne. Before Christ's face earth and heaven flee away as there is no place found for them. This is the last judgment.

There are, as with all prophecy, some details of events of which we do not know.
But the above is a good general outline.

Incidently, the overcoming saints who reign with Christ in the millennium are not only out from the church age. They will be overcomers out from the prior ages as well.

Any defeated saints from any age will have to have been fully matured and perfected by the time the age of eternity comes with the new heaven and new earth. This age is covered in Revelation 21 and 22.

The restoration during the millenial kingdom is strong but partial. That may be because not all of the sons of God are matured.

The complete new heaven and new earth is a full recovery and some. At that time ALL of the sons of God have been perfected in maturity. The New Jerusalem is full completion is ready. All saints have become overcomers.

Proof - Revelation 21:5-7

" And He who sits on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said, Write, for these words are faithful and true. (v.5)

And He said to me, They have come to pass, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give to him who thirsts from the spring of the water of life freely. (v.6)

He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me." (v.7) (Rev. 21:5-7)

In other words "these things" by that time are the common eternal blessings of all who have been saved. "[T]hese things" are the all things that God has made new in verse 5.

By this time there is left NO immaturity in any of God's children. Those who had to attend "summer school" have all graduated by then. Some graduated on time and were rewarded with the millennial kingdom. Some had to spend that time being matured. They lost that reward but are still eternally saved.

Now by this time ALL have been perfected and ALL have overcome.
All have been conformed to the image of Christ the Firstborn Son of God.
All have been built up together into God's living habitation of the mingling of divinity and humanity - New Jerusalem.

And nations around them are healed and walk in their light. But the sons of God are all in the New Jerusalem as God's habitation and living temple - the eternal Holy of Holies where God and man are united as one.

Originally posted by sonship
You confused the judgment of [b]Matthew 25:31-46 with the judgment at the great white throne in Revelation 20. Worst still, you seemed to confuse both of them with "the judgment seat of Christ."

The three judgments are historically in this order:

First - the judgment seat of Christ occurs after all the raptures. It is in ...[text shortened]... ity comes with the new heaven and new earth. This age is covered in Revelation 21 and 22.[/b]

As a teenager, I remember going to many church events like bible schools and bible classes in which Revelation and the Kingdom was the topic of discussion. 99% of those participating did not have a clue about what the speaker was on about. At the back of my mind I knew it was a pile of mumbo jumbo which cannot be supported in the bible. Some of what you say here fall in that category. You are adding stuff, you are embellishing bible teachings, you are fabricating stories to fit in. All churches do that - they add nonsense to make it sound nice.

Im interested in what is in the bible, not in your stories -
1. Matt 25 is about Christians escaping the tribulation - thats a story
2. The judgment seat of Christ takes place in the air - thats a story
3. All Christians will mature in the milennial age - thats a story

And there are more stories in your postings.

Originally posted by Rajk999

Sorry, I'm not impressed with your dubious Sunday School days. I can back up what I wrote. And you've given no reason so far why I should abandon what I briefly explained.

Not for your sake but for some reading along then:

1. Matt 25 is about Christians escaping the tribulation - thats a story

Your skepticism here means nothing to me.

Revelation tells us that two categories of people will be persecuted during the last three and one half years of this age. And these two groups compose the Lord's brothers down to the least of them.

1.) Elect Jews preserved by God to be saved.
2.) Christians on earth who were left having missed the first rapture.

Why do I say that? Making up stuff ? No, following closely the word of God.

" And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus." (Rev. 12:17)

PERSECUTED by Satan via Antichrist -

1.) Those who keep the commandments of God - Jews
2.) Those who have the testimony of Jesus - Christians

These are the Lord's brothers down to even the least of them.

"Here is the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." (Rev. 14:12)

PERSECUTED by Satan via Antichrist -

1.) Those who keep the commandments of God - Jews
2.) Those who have the testimony of Jesus - Christians

These are the ones of whom Jesus says immediately after the great tribulation:

"For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me a drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in, Naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me. (Matt. 25:35-37; comp. 42-43)

These are these are the saints of whom it says they keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus who are persecuted in the last three and half years of the age before the millennium.

In both cases the Gentile nations' people did not know that what they were doing or NOT doing was actually unto the coming Jesus Christ, the Son of Man Himself.

Saul of Tarsus sorely persecuted the church. And Jesus said to him "Saul, Saul, Why do you persecute Me?" Saul also didn't realize that he was touching the very brothers of Christ.