Jesus once said that his kingdom was not of this world. So what is his "kingdom"?
We must first look at the kingdoms of the world to assess what exactly the kingdom of God is not. I will focus on the modern kingdoms of this world we have today as well as of recent memory.
What are the characteristics of the kingdoms of this world?
1. Some brand of collectivism is employed. Each of the modern day kingdoms of the world depend upon some form of collectivism. This is because collectivism brings power. Man seeks power and as we know Biblically, power corrupts no matter how many times you deny that your peeps in power are immune to it. In fact, the more centralized power becomes, the more corrupt the said leaders become. There is no getting around it.
2. Military conquest. Those that employ collectivism and seek power also seek world conquering military might. Naturally, in this Satanic world of man held power, military might is a necessity, much like it was to ancient Rome and the rest. Collectivism seems to be the only way to achieve this power looking at previous world powers like Hitler, Stalin, and yes, the modern day US, for it was men like Woodrow Wilson and FDR who sought to centralize power within the US and transform the US into a world military machine. In fact, the US now has troops in over 70 countries around the world, something men like Hitler and Stalin could only dream about.
3. Of course, after the advent of Christ coming into the world, world governments have changed a bit. Now those collectivist powers seem to feign support for the poor, the weak, the down trodden. Hitler employed socialist programs for the average German as he provided them free everything including health care, education, welfare etc. This is because the Nazi party understood that they needed a certain amount of support from their citizens in order to maintain power, and it worked. The German people did not revolt as they had done in World War 1. In fact, the average German enjoyed a standard of living above that of their Allied counterparts. To achieve this, collectivists must rely on large pots of money, any way they can create them. They then divert this money to two things, redistribution for the "poor" and the military.
4. Genocide. Yep, the blood of innocents is the lubricant that help keep the engine running of these Luciferian world governments. With the Nazi regime, they stole money from the Jews and murdered them as well as declaring war on the top 4% in Germany. They also stole from conquered lands and encouraged those conquered territories to stabilize their ravaged economies by rounding up Jews and taking their gold. Stalin had his own version of this. as he killed far more people for political reasons. And the US is no different as it has murdered well over 50 million unborn children, all in the name of financial convenience. As a side note, it is interesting that Jesus said that the blood of the prophets was on the hands of the Jewish leaders throughout history. This type of murderous lust is seen no matter where you turn it seems.
So what is the kingdom of God? It is far easier to assess the kingdoms of the world than it is the kingdom of God. After all, where is the central government? Where is their army? Where is their leader? What are its laws? How do they enforce those laws? etc.
It seems to me that Jesus simply introduced the kingdom of God into the world with no intent to conquer the world as of yet. Jesus is the leader and his laws are his teachings. In fact, any man who purports to be the leader in his stead is but a thief and murderer as we have seen throughout history. There is no enforcement of these laws......yet. We are promised justice, but not necessarily in this world. The kingdom of God is simply experienced around those who follow Jesus, not those who purport to follow him but do not.
Originally posted by whodeyHutterite communities are the closest template for the kingdom of God that you will find.
So what is the kingdom of God? It is far easier to assess the kingdoms of the world than it is the kingdom of God. After all, where is the central government? Where is their army? Where is their leader? What are its laws? How do they enforce those laws? etc.
It seems to me that Jesus simply introduced the kingdom of God into the world with no intent ...[text shortened]... imply experienced around those who follow Jesus, not those who purport to follow him but do not.
Homestead Heritage, another communal Christian movement, is also a good example of what the kingdom will look like. http://www.motherearthnews.com/nature-and-environment/homestead-heritage-zm0z13jjzcom.aspx#axzz3NU3bXzcy
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This is a very big subject. I would start with one of Christ's parables.
"And He said, So is the kingdom of God: as if a man cast seed on the earth, And sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and lengthens - how he does not know.
The earth bears fruit by itself: first a blade, then an ear, then full grain in the ear. But when the fruit is ripe, immediately he sends forth the sickle, because the harvest has come." (Mark 4:26-29)
The kingdom of God is a matter of stages being passed through until a consummation. The kingdom of God is a developing matter which reaches a climax. From seed to harvest, from implantation of life to the maturity of life - each stage is a part of the kingdom of God.
The kingdom of God is a matter of God's divine life planted and growing in man's life. When Christ is planted into a man God will grow "organically" and in history a climax of this growth is inevitable.
"So is the kingdom of God: as if a man cast seed on the earth ..."
The seed is God Himself in Christ sown into the hearts of human believers. It is a "seed" of divine and uncreated eternal life of God planted into the "soil" of man's being. It will grow.
The sprouting of the seed - is part of the kingdom of God.
The lengthening of the seed - is a further part of the kingdom of God.
The blade developing is that kingdom.
The ear further developing is part of that kingdom.
The full grain in the ear is an ever further part of the kingdom.
The ripening of the fruit is the climax of that growing kingdom of God.
At that time the angels of God come in to assist with outward power the inward growing of the divine life in man.
"But when the fruit is ripe, immediately he sends forth the sickle, because the harvest has come." (v.29)
We are in the stage of God's life growing within millions of Christians. Some more mature orther less. But God is growing within and the circumstances of the world around can only help this "organic" growth until a climax of ripeness.
At the time of consummate ripeness the proclamation will be made -
"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever." (Revelation 11:15b)
Originally posted by whodeyThe Kingdom of God is a heavenly government. Infact the King James Bible even refers to it as such,
Jesus once said that his kingdom was not of this world. So what is his "kingdom"?
We must first look at the kingdoms of the world to assess what exactly the kingdom of God is not. I will focus on the modern kingdoms of this world we have today as well as of recent memory.
What are the characteristics of the kingdoms of this world?
1. Some brand of ...[text shortened]... ders throughout history. This type of murderous lust is seen no matter where you turn it seems.
Isaiah 9: 6-7 King James version
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever
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To see the kingdom of God as only an outward government, even if over the whole world, is too superficial. This is to have pretty much only an Old Testament concept of the government of God.
It is true that Christ will reign over the earth as its King. But the co-kings who are ordained to reign with Him are "organically" indwelt with His Spirit. For this God needs the proper New Testament church life as a beachhead for Him to advance to take the earth.
This is the life aspect of the King Himself being imparted into the believers. Throughout the ages where the quantity of believers have received Christ, He is accumlating the quality of those who have matured to be co-kings with Him when He returns.
From quantity He secures quality for the coming millennial age.
The prevailing and normal church life is the ground upon which the believers can be trained for the coming of Christ's global kingdom -
"For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." (Romans 14:1)
No one refusing the Holy Spirit has any part in the kingdom of God.
No one not both justified to be in a righteous position and living righteously in the Holy Spirit has anything to do with the kingdom of God.
No one not enjoying the "peace and joy" sourced in the indwelling of Jesus Christ has any practical involvement in His kingdom.
To believe into the Son as a realm is to be transferred into His kingdom -
"the Father ... who delivered us out of the authority of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love." (See Col. 1:12,13)
To believe into the Son is also to be called into His kingdom.
"So that you might walk in a manner worthy of God, who calls you into His own kingdom and glory." (1 Thess. 2:12)
The prevailing church life therefore is closely related to the kingdom of the heavens.
"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens, ... " (See Matt. 16:28,29)
Jesus gave Peter plural "keys" of the kingdom. With one key he opened the door and the Jews entered into the church life at Pentecost. Then with the second key he opened the door to the Gentiles in the house of Cornelius. Then the Gentiles entered into the church life.
Originally posted by whodeyCould you PLEASE take your bullcrap political opinions to Debates and leave us out of it????
Jesus once said that his kingdom was not of this world. So what is his "kingdom"?
We must first look at the kingdoms of the world to assess what exactly the kingdom of God is not. I will focus on the modern kingdoms of this world we have today as well as of recent memory.
What are the characteristics of the kingdoms of this world?
1. Some brand of ...[text shortened]... ders throughout history. This type of murderous lust is seen no matter where you turn it seems.
Originally posted by sonshipBut the OP is just using this cover of "religion" or a "religious concept debate" in order to foist his weird political opinions on us. (Look at his #2 in the OP. He's comparing the modern US (and Wilson and FDR, by extension) with Satan, Ancient Rome, Hitler and Stalin. I find this EXTREMELY offensive.)
He's trying another approach to the matter of the kingdom of God.
Maybe it will be enlightening spiritually.
I'm getting very tired of it, and the subterfuge.
This is NOT the "Politics" forum.
Originally posted by SuzianneQuestion: "How is Satan god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4)?"
But the OP is just using this cover of "religion" or a "religious concept debate" in order to foist his weird political opinions on us. (Look at his #2 in the OP. He's comparing the modern US (and Wilson and FDR, by extension) with Satan, Ancient Rome, Hitler and Stalin. I find this EXTREMELY offensive.)
I'm getting very tired of it, and the subterfuge.
This is NOT the "Politics" forum.
Jesus clearly distances himself from the kingdoms of this world by saying that his kingdom is not of this world.
As for the world kingdoms of Hitler and Stalin, are they not to be compared to other world kingdoms that Jesus distances himself from? Is your government somehow better or worse than other world kingdoms?
It reminds me of how we approach sinners. Some seem to sin worse than others, but when it comes to our own selves we seem to think we are somehow better. In reality, we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God.
I think it important to understand what exactly the kingdom of God is about. Emperor Constantine, for example, set up a worldly kingdom in the name of God. Was this really an extension of the kingdom of God, or a mistaken fantasy?
What say you Suzianne?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI'm glad to see you here Robbie. I often wonder if the JW's have it right, perhaps followers of Jesus should obtain from participating in politics altogether.
The Kingdom of God is a heavenly government. Infact the King James Bible even refers to it as such,
Isaiah 9: 6-7 King James version
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and [b]the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of ...[text shortened]... m, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever[/b]
For example, the right wing in the US had the Christian right for a number of years, as they supported "W" for two full terms as President. And what did they get as a result politically? Nothing, that's what and they certainly did not obtain anything spiritually.
Now let's look at the left winged religious folk like Obama's Rev. Wright who embraces Black Liberation Theology. These folks believe that through government the kingdom of God can come about. in fact, Rev. wright often filled church services preaching about political matters and petitioning folks to support many political movements. Right now I'm thinking that the Rev. feels as used by Obama as the Christian right was used by "W".
What distresses me are these catch political phrases like our "collective salvation". Does anyone hear think that this has anything to do with the kingdom of God coming about?
Originally posted by whodey"Not of this world" doesn't mean the kingdom will not be on the earth. It means it will not be part of the everyday, iniquitous, business-as-usual world of Mammon that we all live in. The kingdom will be separate and independent from that world in every respect. As it is now, each of us actively participates and collaborates with the world of Mammon on a day to day basis. The stain of original sin means that we are born into that world and are acculturated to its habits. To join the kingdom means to quit collaborating in the perpetuation of the world of Mammon. To drop out of the economic system. To go off the grid. To form a community that transcends the original sin of private property. A community that will shine as a city on the hill for those still straining under the yoke of iniquity in the world of Mammon.
Question: "How is Satan god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4)?"
Jesus clearly distances himself from the kingdoms of this world by saying that his kingdom is not of this world.
As for the world kingdoms of Hitler and Stalin, are they not to be compared to other world kingdoms that Jesus distances himself from? Is your government somehow better or worse ...[text shortened]... is really an extension of the kingdom of God, or a mistaken fantasy?
What say you Suzianne?
Originally posted by rwingettI don't think this argument can be substantiated in the light of scripture, for while Christ states that while his followers were to be 'no part of the world', they were not to be 'taken out of the world'. It would be unreasonable therefore to expect Christians on the basis of Christs teaching to form independent communes and to drop out economically altogether.
"Not of this world" doesn't mean the kingdom will not be on the earth. It means it will not be part of the everyday, iniquitous, business-as-usual world of Mammon that we all live in. The kingdom will be separate and independent from that world in every respect. As it is now, each of us actively participates and collaborates with the world of Mammon on a da ...[text shortened]... a city on the hill for those still straining under the yoke of iniquity in the world of Mammon.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe point is not to remain separate, but to act as a beacon of hope that draws people away from Mammon and toward the kingdom. A place where "day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they partake of food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord will add to their numbers day by day those who are being saved." (paraphrased from Acts 2:46-47)
I don't think this argument can be substantiated in the light of scripture, for while Christ states that while his followers were to be 'no part of the world', they were not to be 'taken out of the world'. It would be unreasonable therefore to expect Christians on the basis of Christs teaching to form independent communes and to drop out economically altogether.
If the world of Mammon is the only game in town, then people will continue perpetuating its cycle of iniquity in perpetuity. A pioneering, fledgling kingdom can break that cycle by offering a place where righteousness can flourish and prosper. And when that model takes root and grows (to borrow Sonship's plant metaphor), then the kingdom will be realized and the spirit of the Lord will flood into it and give it His blessing. That spiritual influx will be your "second coming".