Kingdom of God vs. Kingdoms of the world

Originally posted by sonship

You aren't required to do anything but dream starry-eyed thoughts of Jesus delivering the kingdom into your lap,

Quite the contrary. You see what we have is a working model in many places around the US and on all five continents. So what I am writing is not purely theoretical.

Here are some places where we live the kingdom life a ...[text shortened]... rch in Worcester
www.churchinworcester.org

church in Yorba Linda
www.churchinyorbalinda.org

The key word here is "practical", which I will interpret as "that which allows us to keep collaborating with Mammon on a daily basis".

Originally posted by rwingett
Your interpretation of Christianity is horribly antiquated. As is your interpretation of god. Our understanding of what "god" IS is conditioned by the era we find ourselves in. Interpretations based on antiquated modes of thought are superseded by more nuanced interpretations as we learn more and more about the universe. And your interpretation of god as a ...[text shortened]... to ensure that Christianity will become less and less relevant to the age we find ourselves in.

I'll be danged rwingett, if I had known you knew more about God than God I never would have engaged in this discussion. Thank you for setting me strait.

Silly me for imagining God. Oh, and thank you for condescending to my entertainment for the day. It's been really real. 🙂

Originally posted by josephw
I'll be danged rwingett, if I had known you knew more about God than God I never would have engaged in this discussion. Thank you for setting me strait.

Silly me for imagining God. Oh, and thank you for condescending to my entertainment for the day. It's been really real. 🙂

Verily I say unto you, josephw, that the scales will one day be lifted from your eyes and you will know the truth. But it seems you will wander through the wilderness for many leagues before that day.

Originally posted by whodey
So what is the kingdom of God? It is far easier to assess the kingdoms of the world than it is the kingdom of God. After all, where is the central government? Where is their army? Where is their leader? What are its laws? How do they enforce those laws? etc.

It seems to me that Jesus simply introduced the kingdom of God into the world with no intent ...[text shortened]... imply experienced around those who follow Jesus, not those who purport to follow him but do not.

So what is the Kingdom of god?

Originally posted by divegeester
So what is the Kingdom of god?

You really don't know?

Originally posted by josephw
In a nutshell, the kingdom of God is the Word of God.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!

Beautiful simplicity. I love it.

Originally posted by divegeester
So what is the Kingdom of god?

What is the Kingdom of God? It is the Word of God, or put another way, it is the Word incarnate or Christ.

The is no kingdom without a king.

The kingdom of God has two aspects. On one hand it is like the kingdom of animals. The dog kingdom is that which pertains to the life of dogs. The whale kingdom pertains to all the living of whales.

The kingdom of God is the life and living of God. Just like there is a human kingdom and a plant kingdom or animal kingdom there is a God kingdom because God has a divine life.

Then there is a more outward aspect of God having a sphere to administrate His will. This is a kingdom with God as ruler over the whole universe working out His plan and purpose.

Originally posted by rwingett
To be a "local church" is wholly insufficient. For the congregation collaborates with Mammon the entire time they are not in church. In their jobs and daily lives they act as the lubrication that keeps the wheels of Mammon turning. As long as they participate, however tacitly, in that system of iniquity, they are complicit in its maintenance.

What is nee ...[text shortened]... living that doesn't contribute to the workings of Mammon and perpetuate its continual operation.

Your whole premise rests upon the notion that mammon can be destroyed.

Seeing that you don't believe in a God or devil, then your position would have to believe that mammon was created by man. Looking at the recorded history of mankind, when has mammon not existed? If there is no record of it not ever existing, then it would appear to be innate. How can you then overcome human nature?

Speaking of human nature in relation to recorded history, one thing is apparent. Men seek a king. We all seem to seek a system where everyone is equal but ruled by a king of some sort. If men reject their king, for whatever reason, then they seek another, or if they feel like they don't have a king, they will seek one.

Again, this appears to be human nature. The Bible calls us "sheep". Looking at the natural state of man, I can't disagree. By in large human beings are not all that bright and tend to follow the crowd. In general, humans are vulnerable to all kinds of evils, and without a shepherd, tend not to fare to well on their own. Additionally, people tend to follow the crowd. If one jumps off the cliff, they all do.

Knowing these facts about what makes human beings tick, how will man ever seek a utopia without a king, without a ruler? Sure, you may seek it as well as a hand full of others for an unknown period of time, but in the end, there will be those around you who seek to unite others to enslave you in some way. When this happens, in order to survive you too will have to seek to unite others around you to fight them off. The natural result of this is that you tend to become what you are fighting against.

What I have described is the power of collectivism. It is the process of centralizing power and creating huge pots of money along side a world conquering army. How do you plan to break this nonstop method of man? As for Christians, it's not our job to save mankind because we understand that this sort of power if far from our own.

Originally posted by whodey

As for Christians, it's not our job to save mankind because we understand that this sort of power if far from our own.

Yet when you put on your political hat (helmet really) and launch diatribes against Liberalism, Socialism, Social programs, Obama you do give that impression of saving society.

You give an impression that when your comfort level is touched you wax spiritual. This is a spirituality which seems to be concerned about one's own skin first.

This is like when someone takes your air-conditoner you dramatically shout Bible passages against them. A selective outrage because the status quo is slipping and disturbing your comfort level.

I think you are also very afraid that others will spiritualize the removal of your material benefits under the status quo. That's why your go for the juggler concerning any church going done by President Obama. I think you want to remove as far as possible any hint that the Christian gospel could interfere with you maintaining a privileged place under the status quo.

There was a cartoon of three fish. A tiny fish being eaten by a larger fish. And the larger fish being eaten by a huge fish.

The tiny fish being eaten by the larger fish was saying "There is no justice in the world." The middle size fish eating the tiny fish was saying "There is some justice in the world. And the huge fish eating that middle size fish was saying "The world is just."

People's spirituality can be colored by where they are on the materialist food chain. Don't you think so?

Originally posted by sonship

People's spirituality can be colored by where they are on the materialist food chain. Don't you think so?[/b]

Many equate mammon with spirituality. Rwingett is just one example of this. For them, God is a code word for being anti-mammon, and does not really exist. Ironically, really all they are after is mammon for all in equal portions. Black liberation theology is another example of this Marxist pursuit of mammon.

Conversely, those on the other end of the political spectrum in Christian circles tend to lean towards the notion that is one is spiritual, then one will be blessed with wealth. In fact, if one is not being blessed with mammon, then they are not really God's own because they are not being blessed accordingly.

I think both are an outrage and should be spoken against as such. When left wingers get up and try and cozy up to the gospel when talking about redistribution to the poor but then distance themselves from the gospel when discussing abortion and start muttering separation of church and state, it really bothers me. Should we then not speak out?

I imagine if the Christian right gets their guy in their declaring he is against abortion, even though doing noting about it, we will still have the same problem. It is no different from the left winger standing up and voting for redistribution to the poor, even though nothing much seems to ever be accomplished for the poor either. it's just a sick game of smoke and mirrors all designed to obtain power, and using Christianity like a used rubber for political gain, much like Constantine of old.

What is sad, however, is that the evils men like Constantine inflicted on the reputation of the Christian religion continue to live on. In the back of everyone's mind are the Inquisitions, the Crusades, the ghettos for Jews etc., that were done in the name of Christ. Men like Obama and "W" continue this legacy as they also claim their allegiance to Christ, even though their actions are far from him.

The issues of today are really between mammon and Jesus. The world lives on a fear of lack. This fear of scarcity of resources and money seem to be what drives the world today. We see this from both sides of the political spectrum in the world of mammon. Those on the right oppose illegal immigration on the basis that we only have so much in the country to go around, so we need to restrict illegal immigration. Then we have those on the left saying that they don't believe that illegal immigrants are cutting into their piece of the pie, but then turn around and oppose jobs going over seas because that means less for them.

Our world leaders are no different. For them, they see dwindling natural resources as a threat to their piece of the pie as well. They are then driven to micromanage the use of money and natural resources. The state then becomes heavy handed in deciding the most minute of details of our daily lives, right down to how much water we use when we flush a commode.

Having said all that, is everything one big pie? Is there only enough to go around for so many and once it is eaten up everyone goes hungry? I am taken back to historical examples where rulers had the same attitude in days of old. Egyptian Pharaohs would do such things as hord food and material with the attitude that there was only so much to go around, and then would heavily regulate commerce in addition.

However, the Christian should have a different attitude. The Christian worships an eternal God that has infinite power in an infinite universe. Can resources be lacking in an infinite universe? Can mankind eat all of the pie in light of the fact that they worship an all powerful God who is benevolent and infinite in power? This is why I think much of this scarcity fear mongering is generated from people who don't have that much faith in God, if at all. Once God is out of the picture, someone must assume the role and begin to ration wealth and resources. This is because they are finite and have a finite view of the infinite. No matter how infinite the universe may be, there will always be only so much to go around.

Originally posted by whodey

However, the Christian should have a different attitude. The Christian worships an eternal God that has infinite power in an infinite universe. Can resources be lacking in an infinite universe? Can mankind eat all of the pie in light of the fact that they worship an all powerful God who is benevolent and infinite in power? This is why I think much of this scarcity fear mongering is generated from people who don't have that much faith in God, if at all. Once God is out of the picture, someone must assume the role and begin to ration wealth and resources.

Have you read the story of Joseph ?
Joseph is a type of Christ.

Did you read how Joseph being made second to Pharoah by God's sovereignty, dealt with the world wide famine ? After the people sold Joseph everything in order to eat they finally turned themselves over to Joseph to remain alive.

I would like your comments on Genesis 47:11-27. How does this example Joseph's God ordained governing fit your model ?

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] However, the Christian should have a different attitude. The Christian worships an eternal God that has infinite power in an infinite universe. Can resources be lacking in an infinite universe? Can mankind eat all of the pie in light of the fact that they worship an all powerful God who is benevolent and infinite in power? This is why I think much of ...[text shortened]... [b]Genesis 47:11-27. How does this example Joseph's God ordained governing fit your model ?[/b]

There are and have been "good" people in government, but at the end of the day they all end up slaves, or have you not read past the story of Joseph?

Nevermind