Originally posted by josephw
[b]"How does one get from not hearing to "hear" and how does one get from "hear" to "believe"?"

You're walking down the street minding your own business thinking about the nature of reality trying to peg meaning on your existence when all of a sudden you hear the Word of God being preached by a street preacher who says something that triggers a though ...[text shortened]... believe and know I cannot lie.

"And what is the motivation to do so?"

Eternal life.[/b]

Thanks for the explanation.

Originally posted by divegeester
Why would discovery be an anticlimax in your view? Either physical or metaphysical.

It's not really in the 'discovery'. What do you think happens AFTER the 'discovery'? Right, then you just 'know'.

Originally posted by FMF
In my experience, the problem for religious people who declare that they "know" the "truth" about supernatural things is that this settling for a package of ready-made answers so often deactivates their "curiosity" and meaningful "discovery" of things that they in fact do not "know".

'Settling' has nothing to do with it.

Originally posted by divegeester
The OP presumes that it is better to seek to discover than to presume to know.

There is no 'presumption'.

One either knows or one does not know. Yes, the knowing comes after the discovery, but do not make the mistake of thinking that the seeking is the best part. Seeking can become frustration if what you seek is never found. But once it IS found, then comes the comfort of knowing.

Originally posted by Suzianne
'Settling' has nothing to do with it.

Take RJHinds for example. He has settled for the Creation-in-Six-Days (etc.) version of the package and is therefore utterly incapable of talking about the scientific reality of what he ought to be celebrating as the wonderful intricacy and ingenuity of creation. Instead, he has basically disabled himself spiritually and intellectually with his subscription to a package of ready-made answers and, in so doing, as I put it, settled for less than what he could or should. Just one example.

Originally posted by FMF
Take RJHinds for example. He has settled for the Creation-in-Six-Days (etc.) version of the package and is therefore utterly incapable of talking about the scientific reality of what he ought to be celebrating as the wonderful intricacy and ingenuity of creation. Instead, he has basically disabled himself spiritually and intellectually with his subscription to a ...[text shortened]... and, in so doing, as I put it, settled for less than what he could or should. Just one example.

Nevertheless, the man knows that Christ sacrificed Himself on the cross for his sake.

The rest is details.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Nevertheless, the man knows that Christ sacrificed Himself on the cross for his sake.

The rest is details.

Well, obviously to my way of thinking, settling for the 'Christ sacrificed Himself on the cross for people' is part of one of the ready-made packages of religionist answers to the questions of life and it seems to be subscribed to and internalized, by many people, instead of exercising the full "curiosity" and "discovery" potential of our common human spirits. People turning to the off-the-shelf doctrines and folk tales of Islam, and Christianity, and Hinduism (for example), and thinking that this has got their "Knowing vs. discovering" covered, is more than mere details.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Nevertheless, the man knows that Christ sacrificed Himself on the cross for his sake.

The rest is details.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Nevertheless, the man knows that Christ sacrificed Himself on the cross for his sake.

The rest is details.

Candidate for the RHP Spirituality Forum's Post of the Year of Our Lord 2015!

Thank you.

Originally posted by FMF
Well, obviously to my way of thinking, settling for the 'Christ sacrificed Himself on the cross for people' is part of one of the ready-made packages of religionist answers to the questions of life and it seems to be subscribed to and internalized, by many people, instead of exercising the full "curiosity" and "discovery" potential of our common human spirits. P ...[text shortened]... d thinking that this has got their "Knowing vs. discovering" covered, is more than mere details.

" 'Curiousity' and 'discovery' potential" is useless if it drives us away from God.

Humans are as diverse as they can be. No one person has the exact same belief as any other, and therefore calling their personal set of beliefs an " 'off-the-shelf' religious package of doctrines" borders on ignorance, and disrespect and a down-right repudiation of their personal choice. Calling someone's beliefs a "ready-made package of religionist answers" begs the same question and is basically an insult to the decision-making process of that person.

I just wish you could allow people the freedom to believe what they want without denigrating and deriding them for their personal beliefs. That you do show them this level of disrespect is perhaps the main reason I find myself disagreeing with virtually anything coming from your direction in this forum. That you call it 'settling', obviously to your way of thinking, shows your inherent bias and intolerance of them. I just cannot abide this level of non-compassion for your forum neighbors, just because they do not believe whatever it is that you believe.

And with that, I think I'm done here.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Candidate for the RHP Spirituality Forum's Post of the Year of Our Lord 2015!

It's also an excellent example of how trite religionist declarations can end up being, especially when you are more intent on preaching to the converted than offering a mind map or morality that a non-believer might, just might, seek to emulate. Doctrinal details aside, you are indistinguishable from Dasa.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Humans are as diverse as they can be. No one person has the exact same belief as any other, and therefore calling their personal set of beliefs an " 'off-the-shelf' religious package of doctrines" borders on ignorance, and disrespect and a down-right repudiation of their personal choice.

I support them in making their "personal choice". I have said time and time again, if subscribing to a religion and telling themselves that they are going to be immortal helps them come to terms with the finality of death, and adds some sort of meaning to life that would otherwise not be there, then good for them.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I just wish you could allow people the freedom to believe what they want without denigrating and deriding them for their personal beliefs.

I don't seek to restrict anyone's freedom. People are clearly allowed to believe what they want. And I have no problem whatsoever if you choose to denigrate and deride me for my personal beliefs.

Originally posted by Suzianne
That you call it 'settling', obviously to your way of thinking, shows your inherent bias and intolerance of them. I just cannot abide this level of non-compassion for your forum neighbors, just because they do not believe whatever it is that you believe.

Well, the only opinions that I seek to air are my own. Disagreeing with people on a debate and discussion forum can hardly be characterized as "intolerance" and "non-compassion". By your own standard, do you think you demonstrate "intolerance" and "non-compassion" towards the non-Christians in this community?

Originally posted by Suzianne
Humans are as diverse as they can be. No one person has the exact same belief as any other, and therefore calling their personal set of beliefs an " 'off-the-shelf' religious package of doctrines" borders on ignorance, and disrespect and a down-right repudiation of their personal choice.

And yet you have just summed up the commonality between you and RJHinds with "Nevertheless, the man knows that Christ sacrificed Himself on the cross for his sake. The rest is details." This is off-the-shelf religionist bumper-stickerism at its most dyed-in-the-wool.

Originally posted by Suzianne
There is no 'presumption'.

One either knows or one does not know. Yes, the knowing comes after the discovery, but do not make the mistake of thinking that the seeking is the best part. Seeking can become frustration if what you seek is never found. But once it IS found, then comes the comfort of knowing.

There is if the "knower" is wrong.