Knowing vs. discovering

Originally posted by FMF
Supposed "knowledge of God" manifests itself in religious beliefs and doctrines. People who do not think there is a God are well able to know what these beliefs and doctrines are if they want to. So they are not disqualified from discussing them at all. What someone who denies the existence of God is disqualified from doing is to claim that they are Christians or Muslims or Hindus, etc.

Actually FMF, there is knowledge unknown to the one that denies the existence of God that transcends merely knowing "religious beliefs and doctrines".

Originally posted by josephw
Actually FMF, there is knowledge unknown to the one that denies the existence of God that transcends merely knowing "religious beliefs and doctrines".

Obviously, I don't see it that way. What I don't believe is that God has revealed Himself to you as laid out in the Christian literature and doctrine that you happen to subscribe to (and I think the same thing about my Muslim neighbour's certainty that God has revealed Himself to him).

While your private thoughts and feelings may be unknown to me, the substance of Christian belief does not somehow create "unknown" things to anyone who is interested in finding out about those beliefs and superstitions ("knowledge" as you perceive it).

In my case, my experience of holding strong Christian beliefs for many years confirms this. The only "knowledge" you have that is "unknown" to others would be personal ideas that you might choose to keep secret. The Christian God figure meanwhile is clearly portrayed and explained in your religion's literature. Anyone interested has access to so-called "knowledge" about your particular God.

Originally posted by josephw
If one believes there is no God, how can that one have a qualified opinion about anything related to the knowledge of God?

Well, by looking at the religion's literature and talking to its adherents, that's how. It's really not difficult to find out what "knowledge of God" a religious person claims to have.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by divegeester
"Then you do not strive for the glory of a king, to search out a matter?"

Two questions: On what do you base this negative assumption and in context what does "strive" and "search" mean to you?

I'll answer your 2 questions when you at least make an attempt to answer my 1. 🙂

Originally posted by divegeester
I'll answer your 2 questions when you at least make an attempt to answer my 1. 🙂

Good luck with that!!

Originally posted by divegeester
Then you do not strive for the glory of a king, to search out a matter?

Originally posted by divegeester
The true delight is in the finding out rather than in the knowing.

Isaac Asimov

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.

Proverbs 25:2

I'd like to say "discuss"; but there is something slightly pompous about posting that in a debate forum. But I do invite discussion and opinion of this premise and these quotations.

Whilst we are all opinionated, and let's be honest now, we all are (even you scientists fight like cat and dog when there is a discovery, a prize or some peer recognition at stake), there are some here who truly believe they have THE truth. Where is the joy of discovery for them?

Look and see how Asimov and David both perceived the same truth separated by millennia in terms of time and a chasm in terms of philosophy.

Err...discuss.
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Originally posted by divegeester
Then you do not strive for the glory of a king, to search out a matter?
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25: 2 "... the proverb states that God and the king promote human welfare in very different ways - God, by concealing that which sets limits to the knowledge of man, that he may not be uplifted; and the king, by research, which brings out the true state of the matter, and thereby guards the political and social condition against threatening danger, secret injuries, and the ban of offences unatoned for. This proverb, regarding the difference between that which constitutes the honour of God and of the king, is followed by one which refers to that in which the honour of both is alike." Keil and Delitzsch OT Commentary
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/kad/proverbs/25.htm

Your question doesn't apply since I'm not a "king". Reverential awe for God motivates me to expose myself [as a member of Christ's Royal Family] to the accurate teaching of His Word in order to learn, assimilate and apply truths He has revealed.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Your question doesn't apply since I'm not a "king".

As expected.

As my question to you "does not apply", then your two in response to that question can hardly apply to me.

but anyway..

REV 1:6(KJV)
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father.
REV 5:10(KJV)
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests and we shall reign on the earth.
ROM 5:17
States that we will reign in life through Jesus, I believe greek word for "REIGN" is derived from the the word for "KING".

Hey-ho...

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Reverential awe for God motivates me to expose myself [as a member of Christ's Royal Family] to the accurate teaching of His Word in order to learn, assimilate and apply truths He has revealed.

You disagree with some Christians here in this community sometimes. Is it your "teaching" that is always accurate, or are you sometimes wrong and they're right?

Originally posted by divegeester
As expected.

As my question to you "does not apply", then your two in response to that question can hardly apply to me.

but anyway..

REV 1:6(KJV)
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father.
REV 5:10(KJV)
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests and we shall reign on the earth.
ROM 5:17
States that we will reign in ...[text shortened]... h Jesus, I believe greek word for "REIGN" is derived from the the word for "KING".

Hey-ho...

Proverbs 25:2 refers to men who become kings in specific global locales during their mortal lives on planet earth prior to the Second Advent and Millennial Reign of Christ [during which some Members of His Royal Family will be given responsibilities subordinate to Christ's as revealed in the book of Revelation as part of their reward]. This spirituality forum thread's original post presumes to compare an atheist's opinion on the process of discovering secular knowledge with truths revealed by God.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
This spirituality forum thread's original post presumes to compare an atheist's opinion on the process of discovering secular knowledge with truths revealed by God.

Well we know that you think only people who are Christians have human spirit and you have famously declared yourself immune to human criticism, but surely you can acknowledge that all humans have the capacity to search for and discover what they think are "truths" regardless of the fact they may have different beliefs from yours?

Originally posted by FMF
You disagree with some Christians here in this community sometimes. Is it your "teaching" that is always accurate, or are you sometimes wrong and they're right?

Truths revealed in the Word of God were there before we were born and will still be there after we've all departed this life. We're all given maximum time to choose for rather than against Christ; and then to be taught them by a pastor who teaches systematically from the original languages in which the OT and NT were written. Maturity of growth in grace is the issue.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Truths revealed in the Word of God were there before we were born and will still be there after we've all departed this life. We're all given maximum time to choose for rather than against Christ; and then to be taught them by a pastor who teaches systematically from the original languages in which the OT and NT were written. Maturity of growth in grace is the issue.

Yes, but not everyone has the same religious beliefs and affiliation as you happen to have. Surely on some level you recognize that these fellow humans can search for and find what they think are "truths" ~ even if they are non-Christians ~ and that they can reach different conclusions than you while being every bit as certain and sincere about their beliefs regarding supernatural things as you are?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
We're all given maximum time to choose for rather than against Christ...

Do you think someone can somehow "choose" to believe something that they simply find unbelievable?

Originally posted by FMF
Do you think someone can somehow "choose" to believe something that they simply find unbelievable?

Who does that? Moot question.

Originally posted by josephw
Who does that? Moot question.

Urging non-believers to "choose" to believe the thing they don't believe often seems like the only string on Grampy Bobby's proselytizing fiddle.