Lake of fire

Originally posted by sonship
Now as for me a Christian who believes the word of God...

Perhaps you are now trying to detract from the point of this scripture by implying that I am a Christian who doesn't believe in the word of God?

Originally posted by KellyJay
The thing I think people fail to take into account is God doesn't add punishment/wrath to His grace, so why do they think His punishment/wrath will be with mercy mixed in?

Because the alternative, ultimately, leads to an unhealthy fixation on the horrors of a merciless, eternal condemnation to the lake of fire. People in that situation do not realize they are dancing on the edge of insanity, and by dwelling on it openly, they might push other who are vulnerable over that edge.

Originally posted by JS357
Because the alternative, ultimately, leads to an unhealthy fixation on the horrors of a merciless, eternal condemnation to the lake of fire. People in that situation do not realize they are dancing on the edge of insanity, and by dwelling on it openly, they might push other who are vulnerable over that edge.

You suggesting anyone who believes that God doesn't mix mercy and condemnation is insane? If you are only concerned about being fixated that can occur on any topic.

Originally posted by divegeester

Perhaps you are just evading my point that you are claiming it means something that it blatantly doesn't in an attempt to steer away from your awful literal interpretations of these scriptures.

I don't see any "steering away" of anything.

They are tormented before the angels of God and the Lamb of God.
What am I steering away from ?

Here again the Recovery Version translation of Revelation 14:9-11

Identify where I evade, steer clear, sweep under the rug, refuse to notice, etc. etc. what-have-you.

"And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice,

If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,

He also shall drink of the wine of the fury of God, which is mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath; and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb.

And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name. "

That I evade or ignore something in this passage is your wishful thinking it seems.
No, geester, I say 'Amen" to the whole word of God.

Now I did say that I don't like it. Or there are aspects of it that I do not like.

Who says I have to LIKE everything I read in the Bible ?

Originally posted by KellyJay
You suggesting anyone who believes that God doesn't mix mercy and condemnation is insane? If you are only concerned about being fixated that can occur on any topic.

You suggesting anyone who believes that God doesn't mix mercy and condemnation is insane? If you are only concerned about being fixated that can occur on any topic.

I didn't follow to well the exchange yet.
The very first guilty man - Adam. God showed condemnation mixed with mercy.

The second guilty man - Cain. God showed condemnation mixed with mercy.

Of course Cain didn't see it that way. He only said that his punishment was too great for him. He had totally no remorse, totally no repentance, and totally no feeling in his conscience that what he did was wrong.

" And Cain said to Jehovah, My punishment is greater than I can bear." (Gen. 4:13)

He must have been the father of all malignant narcissists.
He could not care less that he murdered his brother.
He only cared that his punishment was harsh.

And we could go on.
Even in Sodom and Gomorrah God PROMISED Abraham that if there were 10 people there who should merit being spared from punishment, He would spare the entire city for their sake. Right? This is chapter 18 of Genesis.

Judgment tempered with mercy is over and over again seen in the Bible.
Sometimes we see judgment without mercy, at least as pertaining to this life.

Judgment is without mercy to him who has shown no mercy.
Isn't the implication that judgment from God can be tempered with restraint ?

It is an arguable case.
Of course eternal destruction from God's salvation should be avoided at all costs unless you just want to share the miserable destiny of Satan.

I'd rather share the glorious destiny of the Son of God.

Originally posted by divegeester
Perhaps you are now trying to detract from the point of this scripture by implying that I am a Christian who doesn't believe in the word of God?

Perhaps you are now trying to detract from the point of this scripture by implying that I am a Christian who doesn't believe in the word of God?

I am not sure what your issue is.

I think you asked what one thought of the torment of the followers of the Antichrist being in the presence of Jesus.

And I gave you my take on that. Why shouldn't it be in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb of God Who suffered and died on the cross FOR them ?

Why should it NOT be in His presence ?

Originally posted by JS357

Because the alternative, ultimately, leads to an unhealthy fixation on the horrors of a merciless, eternal condemnation to the lake of fire. People in that situation do not realize they are dancing on the edge of insanity, and by dwelling on it openly, they might push other who are vulnerable over that edge.

Have you noticed that the angel draws John away from the scene of judgment to look at the Bride the Wife of Christ ?

" And one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying,

Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." (Rev. 21:9)

It could have just said an angel came and showed John. It specifies that it was one of the seven angels who had one one of the bowls of the awful wrath of God.

It is as if the executioner of God's judgment does not want to leave John fixated on that inevitable judgment of God's worst enemies.

"Come here and let me show you something of what is really on God's heart."
That seems to me the tone.

And he carried me away in spirit unto a great and high mountain and showed me the holy city Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,

Having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, as clear as crystal." (vs. 10,11)

Want to hear a song I wrote on this verse? Here's that passage put to music -

https://soundcloud.com/jack-wilmore/and-he-carried-me-away-rev-2110-14

Originally posted by sonship

You suggesting anyone who believes that God doesn't mix mercy and condemnation is insane? If you are only concerned about being fixated that can occur on any topic.

I didn't follow to well the exchange yet.
The very first guilty man - Adam. God showed condemnation mixed with mercy.

The second guilty man - Cain. God showed condemna ...[text shortened]... re the miserable destiny of Satan.

I'd rather share the glorious destiny of the Son of God.

Right now in this life we are receiving God's grace just not being immediately held fully accountable for our sins. On the day of the Lord when everyone of us stands to give an account for every word and deed done and not done, we are saved or not. In this life right now we can suffer while being right with God due to us living with the results of our actions and those of others.

Originally posted by KellyJay
You suggesting anyone who believes that God doesn't mix mercy and condemnation is insane? If you are only concerned about being fixated that can occur on any topic.

Insanity — a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.
- R.D. Laing, as quoted in Wisdom for the Soul.

I am suggesting that eternal existence in a merciless "lake of fire" would be an insane world, and anyone who does not get that, isn't comprehending it fully. However, anyone who does comprehend it fully and believes it happens to people and could happen to him or her, is rationally justified to have an insane reaction of some kind; paranoia on a cosmic scale comes to mind. It's a sort of Catch-22: if the idea doesn't drive you nuts, you either don't comprehend it fully or you don't really believe it.

Originally posted by JS357
Insanity — a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.
- R.D. Laing, as quoted in Wisdom for the Soul.

I am suggesting that eternal existence in a merciless "lake of fire" would be an insane world, and anyone who does not get that, isn't comprehending it fully. However, anyone who does comprehend it fully and believes it happens to people and could ...[text shortened]... dea doesn't drive you nuts, you either don't comprehend it fully or you don't really believe it.

Well the world where we live now we murder each other, and a variety of other things. Do you think the evil we do, the evil we accept as normal makes us worthy of insanity if we dwell on that?

Originally posted by sonship
I don't see any "steering away" of anything.

Ok so what do you thInk about your version of Jesus spectating the horror then? Other than you don't like it?..

Originally posted by KellyJay
Well the world where we live now we murder each other, and a variety of other things. Do you think the evil we do, the evil we accept as normal makes us worthy of insanity if we dwell on that?

We can find comfort in what some call a delusion: Hope. Not available to the poor sufferers in the eternal merciless lake of fire. It is said by some to be a socially established and accepted variety of insanity, but a rational one when facing the irrational pain and suffering of this world.

Alexander Pope
“Hope springs eternal in the human breast;
Man never Is, but always To be blest.
The soul, uneasy, and confin'd from home,
Rests and expatiates in a life to come.”

from: https://www.englishclub.com/ref/esl/Sayings/H/Hope_springs_eternal_in_the_human_breast_672.htm

quote: Possible interpretation: The normal interpretation of this saying is that people will always be optimistic and think that something better is coming.
Note: From An Essay on Man by Alexander Pope (1688-1744). Pope seems to be referring specifically to people's belief in a life after death.

unquote

Originally posted by JS357
We can find comfort in what some call a delusion: Hope. Not available to the poor sufferers in the eternal merciless lake of fire. It is said by some to be a socially established and accepted variety of insanity, but a rational one when facing the irrational pain and suffering of this world.

Alexander Pope
“Hope springs eternal in the human breast;
Man ne ...[text shortened]... 4). Pope seems to be referring specifically to people's belief in a life after death.

unquote

I don't see any comfort at all in the lake of fire, none what so ever! I think it the most
horrible thing I can imagine. It is as every bit horrible as I think the grace and mercy will be
beyond measure in being outstandingly good.

You can do a word search on me and see in over 10 years here I've only joined in a small
handful of conversations about Hell. I don't think I've ever started a thread on it till now, at
least none I remember. The reason is Not because I think the lake of fire is not a real
place some will find themselves in it just isn't a topic I like.

Hell, like child rape, murder, war crimes, and several other really bad things cannot be
dismissed as not real just because they are not "good" things to our thinking. Our feelings
and emotions can be at odds with several topics and that doesn't mean reality will some
how make the bad things go away.

With respect to a topic driving someone weak minded into actions we all think would be
bad, Charles Manson used the Beatles "White Album" to justify actions that I think we can
all agree were evil. Any topic can be used for anyone who is looking for an excuse to
justify bad behavior.

When the way to avoid Hell is through Jesus Christ not ourselves we are not bound to
any man or organization except to care all others since Jesus died for us all. When we
are called to love each other as He loves us we are not given an out to hate for any reason.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I don't see any comfort at all in the lake of fire, none what so ever! I think it the most
horrible thing I can imagine. It is as every bit horrible as I think the grace and mercy will be
beyond measure in being outstandingly good.

You can do a word search on me and see in over 10 years here I've only joined in a small
handful of conversations about H ...[text shortened]... we
are called to love each other as He loves us we are not given an out to hate for any reason.

I thing that is an appropriate way to end this exchange of thoughts. Thanks for the civility.

Originally posted by JS357
I thing that is an appropriate way to end this exchange of thoughts. Thanks for the civility.

Ditto