1. Cape Town
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    08 Mar '06 09:48
    I would be interested to know how many Christians here believe that God restricts himself to following the laws of the universe he created or whether he regularly violates those laws. And if he violates the laws does he specifically ensure that such violations are impossible for humans to detect in a scientific way?
  2. Standard memberthesonofsaul
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    08 Mar '06 14:32
    Pointless.
  3. Standard membertelerion
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    08 Mar '06 14:48
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I would be interested to know how many Christians here believe that God restricts himself to following the laws of the universe he created or whether he regularly violates those laws. And if he violates the laws does he specifically ensure that such violations are impossible for humans to detect in a scientific way?
    Important point. I expect responses from the Jesus gang that are highly sensitive to your question, or more precisely, what trick they think you are trying to pull. Many will probably argue that God can and did violate the laws of the universe, and that these violations may not always be detectable.

    Now if you get into an argument about why there is unnecessary evil or why omnipotent, omniscient god can't reveal himself more clearly to us, you'll get all sorts of justifications for God's actions that are firmly based on the assumption that he must obey his own rules (i.e. "God in a Box"😉.

    Their behavior reminds me of when as a child I would play games with my fellow classmates on the bus ride to school each morning. We'd take turns trying to best one another in battle by imagining that we had all sorts of fantastic weapons and defenses.

    "I blast you with my laser gun."
    "Well, you can't because I have anti-laser boots."
    "Well, I have anti-anti-laser boot grenades. I throw one at you."
    "Well, I have an anti-anti-anti-laser boot grenades shield, and it bounces the grenade back to you."
    "Yeah, well I have a forcefield so I'm invincible."
    (thank Zeus the bus ride actually had a termination point).

    Anyway theology is a lot like that. When you're playing make believe there's no discipline on your ideas. I'm just sorry that I have this wasteful habit of arguing with them.
  4. Standard memberHalitose
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    08 Mar '06 15:03
    Originally posted by telerion
    Important point. I expect responses from the Jesus gang that are highly sensitive to your question, or more precisely, what trick they think you are trying to pull. Many will probably argue that God can and did violate the laws of the universe, and that these violations may not always be detectable.

    Now if you get into an argument about why there is ...[text shortened]... deas. I'm just sorry that I have this wasteful habit of arguing with them.
    Even though the theological discussions are "make-belief" you still have logic and reason to appeal to -- God can't be both “X” and “not X”.

    ...but I almost forgot... from a theological perspective our reason and logic is also God-given, so who says God can't defy it? Sorry, bud. It's a lose-lose situation all the way.

    I hope that I've cleared up all the misunderstanding and confusion in your current theological debacle. 😏

    Cheers.
  5. Territories Unknown
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    08 Mar '06 16:53
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I would be interested to know how many Christians here believe that God restricts himself to following the laws of the universe he created or whether he regularly violates those laws. And if he violates the laws does he specifically ensure that such violations are impossible for humans to detect in a scientific way?
    You'll need to be a tad more specific.
    When you ask if God follows the laws of the universe, where do you have Him following them?
    When the Lord Jesus Christ was here on earth, He was subjected to the 'laws of the universe' so-described. That He performed miracles does not infer a breakage of the laws, as much as it suggests there may be laws of which we are not aware.
    With respect to God's restrictions, He is unable to be contained, but He is able to be local, if He so chooses.
  6. Cape Town
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    09 Mar '06 07:36
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    ...... as much as it suggests there may be laws of which we are not aware.
    In your opinion are these laws ones that we may one day be able to discover and possible design experiments to further understand them or are they laws which are forever hidden from us.

    If a miracle occurs, is it possible to scientifically proove that that it was a miracle or will there always be an acceptable scientific explanation.
    If there is an acceptable scientific explanation for all events in the universe then why is there such a big resistance to the Theory of Evolution?
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    09 Mar '06 09:06
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I would be interested to know how many Christians here believe that God restricts himself to following the laws of the universe he created or whether he regularly violates those laws. And if he violates the laws does he specifically ensure that such violations are impossible for humans to detect in a scientific way?
    This is actually really interesting. It seems to me, that if God was not restricted by at least some laws, His actions would be random (which would be inconsistent with the common image of God). Hence, God must follow some laws. Whether these laws are of nature I can't comment. It kind of parallels what Einstein's understanding of an immutable God. However, I suspect that you are referring to purely scientific laws (and not purely abstract laws of reasoning and logic). If so, then could only God travel at the speed of light or slower? What if he could travel faster? Would he then obey the predictions made by the theory of special relativity?

    I dont really know, but it sounds intriguing.
  8. Cape Town
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    09 Mar '06 12:29
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    This is actually really interesting. It seems to me, that if God was not restricted by at least some laws, His actions would be random (which would be inconsistent with the common image of God). Hence, God must follow some laws. Whether these laws are of nature I can't comment. It kind of parallels what Einstein's understanding of an immutable God. However, ...[text shortened]... ns made by the theory of special relativity?

    I dont really know, but it sounds intriguing.
    God by definition does not "travel". My question is does God cause matter or light to travel faster than the speed of light or other violations of known laws in a detectable way.
    An easy example is someone is born without legs, a miracle occurs and without intervention from the medical profession, he suddenly has legs. This is a clear violation of anything we can understand in the realm of science. Or are all healing miracles of the kind that could have other medical explanations?
  9. Territories Unknown
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    09 Mar '06 16:15
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    In your opinion are these laws ones that we may one day be able to discover and possible design experiments to further understand them or are they laws which are forever hidden from us.

    If a miracle occurs, is it possible to scientifically proove that that it was a miracle or will there always be an acceptable scientific explanation.
    If there is an ac ...[text shortened]... r all events in the universe then why is there such a big resistance to the Theory of Evolution?
    Case in point, the resurrection body of the Lord Jesus Christ. After raising from the dead, the body in which He met the disciples (and others) now had unique properties. While apparently most of the 'expected' physical characteristics were entact, i.e., appearance, need for food, etc., there were now unexpected characteristics. Chief among these were the ability to cloak His appearance, walk through walls, and be transported through the atmosphere into space.
    We know that this resurrection body was created by the Lord Jesus Christ, but were these new properties latent within the old body, simply waiting to be brought out?

    Was a miracle simply the Creator tapping into some unknown law? That's just as likely as His suspending the laws He created, but either show His mastery over all of creation. One day He will destroy the known universe and create a new one, which will have unique laws governing it, as well.
  10. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    09 Mar '06 22:37
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Case in point, the resurrection body of the Lord Jesus Christ. After raising from the dead, the body in which He met the disciples (and others) now had unique properties. While apparently most of the 'expected' physical characteristics were entact, i.e., appearance, need for food, etc., there were now unexpected characteristics. Chief among these were t ...[text shortened]... y the known universe and create a new one, which will have unique laws governing it, as well.
    The question has to be, what evidence do you have? Pictures? A body? A skeleton? Perhaps you were there? Nope, you have no first hand evidence of this. Only a bunch of stories of questionable validity.
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    10 Mar '06 12:36
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    The question has to be, what evidence do you have? Pictures
    I am currently working on an experiment in this regard:

    As soon as I achieve transcendance of my current existance and inhabit my "illumined" form, I will be able to test the reproducability of these claims. Until then, its a work in progress...
  12. Territories Unknown
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    10 Mar '06 14:54
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    The question has to be, what evidence do you have? Pictures? A body? A skeleton? Perhaps you were there? Nope, you have no first hand evidence of this. Only a bunch of stories of questionable validity.
    Doubtful, Scott, that you can actually label the Gospel and NT accounts as 'questionable' until such time as you have actually tested them.

    Many have tried, with the sole intent on disproving them, and all have failed in this regard. You'll have to do better than that.
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    10 Mar '06 21:24
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    God by definition does not "travel". My question is does God cause matter or light to travel faster than the speed of light or other violations of known laws in a detectable way.
    An easy example is someone is born without legs, a miracle occurs and without intervention from the medical profession, he suddenly has legs. This is a clear violation of anythi ...[text shortened]... f science. Or are all healing miracles of the kind that could have other medical explanations?
    Ok so say God is omniscient. We know that information cannot be transmitted faster then the speed of light. So how can God be omniscient? How can God be simultaneously aware of two events at opposite ends of the universe if the information pertaining to those events takes light years to reach each other? And how come we can't do that?
  14. Donationbbarr
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    10 Mar '06 21:40
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    Ok so say God is omniscient. We know that information cannot be transmitted faster then the speed of light. So how can God be omniscient? How can God be simultaneously aware of two events at opposite ends of the universe if the information pertaining to those events takes light years to reach each other? And how come we can't do that?
    The obvious answer is that He is omnipresent. Another obvious answer is that He is bound by logical possibility, not nomological possibility. A third obvious answer is that your argument is question begging, since it assumes that God doesn't know the future; He doesn't need to wait for information to travel to Him, since He has known for all time just what would occur.
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    10 Mar '06 23:36
    This whole dilemma arises from the delusion of the individual self. When we assume that our separate self is absolutely real, then we project this idea onto "God", and create the notion of a God as some exaggerated expression of individuality. Then, we have a God who "has powers", "can obey or disobey laws", has "personal characteristics", and so forth.

    The Buddha deconstructed this whole illusory dilemma long ago. The root problem is the assumption that the individual self is real in any absolute or ultimate fashion.

    The Zen expression, "show me your original face before your parents were born", addresses this root issue by directing the mind to search for the origin point of *identity*. (As does the koan "Who am I?", that the Advaita sage Ramana Maharshi used, for example). In time, it becomes increasingly clear that the issue of separate identity is itself the underlying problem. Once that is understood, any tendency to project separate identity onto our idea of God falls away. We give up the attempt to anthropomorphize and fashion God in our image and speculate on what God can or cannot do.

    As with all questions about the absolute, there is usually no answer, there is rather only a deconstructing of the question and the presumed separate identity of the questioner. There is a line in one of the Psalms that speaks to this -- "be still, and know that I am". This "I am" is not a particular identity, as such, and thus cannot possess individual characteristics, like an ice cream flavour, or individual abilities, like a "talent" or a "capacity". It is simply pure Being-ness itself, pure infinite Presence in which all appearances of individuality are endlessly arising and falling away, like waves in an infinite ocean.
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