08 Mar 06
I would be interested to know how many Christians here believe that God restricts himself to following the laws of the universe he created or whether he regularly violates those laws. And if he violates the laws does he specifically ensure that such violations are impossible for humans to detect in a scientific way?
08 Mar 06
Originally posted by twhiteheadImportant point. I expect responses from the Jesus gang that are highly sensitive to your question, or more precisely, what trick they think you are trying to pull. Many will probably argue that God can and did violate the laws of the universe, and that these violations may not always be detectable.
I would be interested to know how many Christians here believe that God restricts himself to following the laws of the universe he created or whether he regularly violates those laws. And if he violates the laws does he specifically ensure that such violations are impossible for humans to detect in a scientific way?
Now if you get into an argument about why there is unnecessary evil or why omnipotent, omniscient god can't reveal himself more clearly to us, you'll get all sorts of justifications for God's actions that are firmly based on the assumption that he must obey his own rules (i.e. "God in a Box"😉.
Their behavior reminds me of when as a child I would play games with my fellow classmates on the bus ride to school each morning. We'd take turns trying to best one another in battle by imagining that we had all sorts of fantastic weapons and defenses.
"I blast you with my laser gun."
"Well, you can't because I have anti-laser boots."
"Well, I have anti-anti-laser boot grenades. I throw one at you."
"Well, I have an anti-anti-anti-laser boot grenades shield, and it bounces the grenade back to you."
"Yeah, well I have a forcefield so I'm invincible."
(thank Zeus the bus ride actually had a termination point).
Anyway theology is a lot like that. When you're playing make believe there's no discipline on your ideas. I'm just sorry that I have this wasteful habit of arguing with them.
08 Mar 06
Originally posted by telerionEven though the theological discussions are "make-belief" you still have logic and reason to appeal to -- God can't be both “X” and “not X”.
Important point. I expect responses from the Jesus gang that are highly sensitive to your question, or more precisely, what trick they think you are trying to pull. Many will probably argue that God can and did violate the laws of the universe, and that these violations may not always be detectable.
Now if you get into an argument about why there is ...[text shortened]... deas. I'm just sorry that I have this wasteful habit of arguing with them.
...but I almost forgot... from a theological perspective our reason and logic is also God-given, so who says God can't defy it? Sorry, bud. It's a lose-lose situation all the way.
I hope that I've cleared up all the misunderstanding and confusion in your current theological debacle. 😏
Cheers.
08 Mar 06
Originally posted by twhiteheadYou'll need to be a tad more specific.
I would be interested to know how many Christians here believe that God restricts himself to following the laws of the universe he created or whether he regularly violates those laws. And if he violates the laws does he specifically ensure that such violations are impossible for humans to detect in a scientific way?
When you ask if God follows the laws of the universe, where do you have Him following them?
When the Lord Jesus Christ was here on earth, He was subjected to the 'laws of the universe' so-described. That He performed miracles does not infer a breakage of the laws, as much as it suggests there may be laws of which we are not aware.
With respect to God's restrictions, He is unable to be contained, but He is able to be local, if He so chooses.
09 Mar 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHIn your opinion are these laws ones that we may one day be able to discover and possible design experiments to further understand them or are they laws which are forever hidden from us.
...... as much as it suggests there may be laws of which we are not aware.
If a miracle occurs, is it possible to scientifically proove that that it was a miracle or will there always be an acceptable scientific explanation.
If there is an acceptable scientific explanation for all events in the universe then why is there such a big resistance to the Theory of Evolution?
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09 Mar 06
Originally posted by twhiteheadThis is actually really interesting. It seems to me, that if God was not restricted by at least some laws, His actions would be random (which would be inconsistent with the common image of God). Hence, God must follow some laws. Whether these laws are of nature I can't comment. It kind of parallels what Einstein's understanding of an immutable God. However, I suspect that you are referring to purely scientific laws (and not purely abstract laws of reasoning and logic). If so, then could only God travel at the speed of light or slower? What if he could travel faster? Would he then obey the predictions made by the theory of special relativity?
I would be interested to know how many Christians here believe that God restricts himself to following the laws of the universe he created or whether he regularly violates those laws. And if he violates the laws does he specifically ensure that such violations are impossible for humans to detect in a scientific way?
I dont really know, but it sounds intriguing.
09 Mar 06
Originally posted by Conrau KGod by definition does not "travel". My question is does God cause matter or light to travel faster than the speed of light or other violations of known laws in a detectable way.
This is actually really interesting. It seems to me, that if God was not restricted by at least some laws, His actions would be random (which would be inconsistent with the common image of God). Hence, God must follow some laws. Whether these laws are of nature I can't comment. It kind of parallels what Einstein's understanding of an immutable God. However, ...[text shortened]... ns made by the theory of special relativity?
I dont really know, but it sounds intriguing.
An easy example is someone is born without legs, a miracle occurs and without intervention from the medical profession, he suddenly has legs. This is a clear violation of anything we can understand in the realm of science. Or are all healing miracles of the kind that could have other medical explanations?
09 Mar 06
Originally posted by twhiteheadCase in point, the resurrection body of the Lord Jesus Christ. After raising from the dead, the body in which He met the disciples (and others) now had unique properties. While apparently most of the 'expected' physical characteristics were entact, i.e., appearance, need for food, etc., there were now unexpected characteristics. Chief among these were the ability to cloak His appearance, walk through walls, and be transported through the atmosphere into space.
In your opinion are these laws ones that we may one day be able to discover and possible design experiments to further understand them or are they laws which are forever hidden from us.
If a miracle occurs, is it possible to scientifically proove that that it was a miracle or will there always be an acceptable scientific explanation.
If there is an ac ...[text shortened]... r all events in the universe then why is there such a big resistance to the Theory of Evolution?
We know that this resurrection body was created by the Lord Jesus Christ, but were these new properties latent within the old body, simply waiting to be brought out?
Was a miracle simply the Creator tapping into some unknown law? That's just as likely as His suspending the laws He created, but either show His mastery over all of creation. One day He will destroy the known universe and create a new one, which will have unique laws governing it, as well.
09 Mar 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHThe question has to be, what evidence do you have? Pictures? A body? A skeleton? Perhaps you were there? Nope, you have no first hand evidence of this. Only a bunch of stories of questionable validity.
Case in point, the resurrection body of the Lord Jesus Christ. After raising from the dead, the body in which He met the disciples (and others) now had unique properties. While apparently most of the 'expected' physical characteristics were entact, i.e., appearance, need for food, etc., there were now unexpected characteristics. Chief among these were t ...[text shortened]... y the known universe and create a new one, which will have unique laws governing it, as well.
10 Mar 06
Originally posted by scottishinnzI am currently working on an experiment in this regard:
The question has to be, what evidence do you have? Pictures
As soon as I achieve transcendance of my current existance and inhabit my "illumined" form, I will be able to test the reproducability of these claims. Until then, its a work in progress...
10 Mar 06
Originally posted by scottishinnzDoubtful, Scott, that you can actually label the Gospel and NT accounts as 'questionable' until such time as you have actually tested them.
The question has to be, what evidence do you have? Pictures? A body? A skeleton? Perhaps you were there? Nope, you have no first hand evidence of this. Only a bunch of stories of questionable validity.
Many have tried, with the sole intent on disproving them, and all have failed in this regard. You'll have to do better than that.
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10 Mar 06
Originally posted by twhiteheadOk so say God is omniscient. We know that information cannot be transmitted faster then the speed of light. So how can God be omniscient? How can God be simultaneously aware of two events at opposite ends of the universe if the information pertaining to those events takes light years to reach each other? And how come we can't do that?
God by definition does not "travel". My question is does God cause matter or light to travel faster than the speed of light or other violations of known laws in a detectable way.
An easy example is someone is born without legs, a miracle occurs and without intervention from the medical profession, he suddenly has legs. This is a clear violation of anythi ...[text shortened]... f science. Or are all healing miracles of the kind that could have other medical explanations?
10 Mar 06
Originally posted by Conrau KThe obvious answer is that He is omnipresent. Another obvious answer is that He is bound by logical possibility, not nomological possibility. A third obvious answer is that your argument is question begging, since it assumes that God doesn't know the future; He doesn't need to wait for information to travel to Him, since He has known for all time just what would occur.
Ok so say God is omniscient. We know that information cannot be transmitted faster then the speed of light. So how can God be omniscient? How can God be simultaneously aware of two events at opposite ends of the universe if the information pertaining to those events takes light years to reach each other? And how come we can't do that?