22 Aug 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHThus we are left with a Deist god.
Technically speaking, you are correct. However, Paine's severely restricted view of God (related to revelation), leaves us with something much less than God and more like a fuzzy catch-all: ill-defined, vague, obscure and--- ultimately--- totally unnecessary.
22 Aug 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHTyping the word "Biblically-informed" does nothing to support your "argument" (whatever it may be). The other Framers had no problem with the words "Nature's God" used by Jefferson even though this concept is foreign to the Christianity you believe is the the only "true" kind i.e. where truth is based only on relevation through the Bible. The "Christian world view" of their day was vastly different from the "Christian worldview" that you espouse.
Gee, with one fell swoop, you change the view of all the framers (predominately Bible-believing) through the words of two unbelievers. The illogical views of Jefferson and the rabid atheism of Paine did not encompass the thinking of the group.
While the ACLU embraces Paine as a brother, they would have crucified Jefferson, let alone the rest of those b ...[text shortened]... fferson was simply the bridge between Paine and the Christian world-view prevalent in their day.
22 Aug 06
3 edits
Originally posted by FreakyKBHIncorrect. Paine and Deists believe that God reveals himself through the workings of Nature which Man using his reason can discover. This is a robust view of both Man and God, not the view of a pitiful, unworthy slave and petty, jealous Master that the OT presents.
Unnecessary, yet Paine insisted that man's moral duty was to imitate this unrevealing nebulous God.
EDIT: In Paine's words:
The Bible represents God to be a changeable, passionate, vindictive being; making a world and then drowning it, afterwards repenting of what he had done, and promising not to do so again. Setting one nation to cut the throats of another, and stopping the course of the sun till the butchery should be done. But the works of God in the creation preach to us another doctrine. In that vast volume we see nothing to give us the idea of a changeable, passionate, vindictive God; everything we there behold impresses us with a contrary idea - that of unchangeableness and of eternal order, harmony, and goodness.
The sun and the seasons return at their appointed time, and everything in the creation claims that God is unchangeable. Now, which am I to believe, a book that any impostor might make and call the Word of God, or the creation itself which none but an Almighty Power could make? For the Bible says one thing, and the creation says the contrary. The Bible represents God with all the passions of a mortal, and the creation proclaims him with all the attributes of a God.
Or Einstein's:
"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own - a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty."
22 Aug 06
1 edit
Originally posted by FreakyKBHsince you defined the ACLU according to your vapid beliefs ,, I think it's appros to let them speak for themselves:
Gee, with one fell swoop, you change the view of all the framers (predominately Bible-believing) through the words of two unbelievers. The illogical views of Jefferson and the rabid atheism of Paine did not encompass the thinking of the group.
While the ACLU embraces Paine as a brother, they would have crucified Jefferson, let alone the rest of those b ...[text shortened]... fferson was simply the bridge between Paine and the Christian world-view prevalent in their day.
The mission of the ACLU is to preserve all of these protections and guarantees:
Your First Amendment rights-freedom of speech, association and assembly. Freedom of the press, and freedom of religion supported by the strict separation of church and state.
Your right to equal protection under the law - equal treatment regardless of race, sex, religion or national origin.
Your right to due process - fair treatment by the government whenever the loss of your liberty or property is at stake.
Your right to privacy - freedom from unwarranted government intrusion into your personal and private affairs
edit : http://www.aclu.org/about/index.html
22 Aug 06
Not exactly on point, but a good zinger from Paine:
The dogma of the redemption is the fable of priestcraft invented since the time the New Testament was compiled, and the agreeable delusion of it suited with the depravity of immoral livers. When men are taught to ascribe all their crimes and vices to the temptations of the devil, and to believe that Jesus, by his death, rubs all off, and pays their passage to heaven gratis, they become as careless in morals as a spendthrift would be of money, were he told that his father had engaged to pay off all his scores.
22 Aug 06
Originally posted by no1marauderIncorrect. Paine and Deists believe that God reveals himself through the workings of Nature which Man using his reason can discover. This is a robust view of both Man and God, not the view of a pitiful, unworthy slave and petty, jealous Master that the OT presents.
Incorrect. Paine and Deists believe that God reveals himself through the workings of Nature which Man using his reason can discover. This is a robust view of both Man and God, not the view of a pitiful, unworthy slave and petty, jealous Master that the OT presents.
EDIT: In Paine's words:
The Bible represents God to be a changeable, passionate, vin ...[text shortened]... oses are modeled after our own - a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty."
Not exactly. While admittedly no expert on Paine (why, up until today, I didn't know the 'e' was supposed to be silent), I have read most of his works and life story. When I say "unrevealing," I am merely characterizing God using the same venacular as did the deists of Paine's day. Namely, they held that the nature of God was revealed only in His physical creation, and that all other forms of revelation (puported messages, prophesy, commands, etc), amounted to unsubstantiated hearsay. As such, revelation which sprang into being as a result of efforts construed to be man-based is to be discarded. In effect, beyond principals inclusively available to all, nothing more can be known about God.
Sadly, Paine did not realize that such a stance of elimination placed him right back at square one: dependent upon man. Well, we can't be right about everything, now can we?
22 Aug 06
Originally posted by no1marauderYou'd almost think that Paine was claiming Christians would be fast and loose with their morality. Unbeknownst to Paine, morality is the lesser part of the Christian's spiritual life. The spiritual life provided by God far exceeds any code of conduct which could either artificially or naturally be called morality. Integrity is the operative mindset for the Christian, not morality.
Not exactly on point, but a good zinger from Paine:
The dogma of the redemption is the fable of priestcraft invented since the time the New Testament was compiled, and the agreeable delusion of it suited with the depravity of immoral livers. When men are taught to ascribe all their crimes and vices to the temptations of the devil, and to believe that ...[text shortened]... endthrift would be of money, were he told that his father had engaged to pay off all his scores.
22 Aug 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHYes, a Man is dependent on himself to use his reason. We're always back on this "square one". Do you think that is some kind of refutation?
[b]Incorrect. Paine and Deists believe that God reveals himself through the workings of Nature which Man using his reason can discover. This is a robust view of both Man and God, not the view of a pitiful, unworthy slave and petty, jealous Master that the OT presents.
Not exactly. While admittedly no expert on Paine (why, up until today, I didn't kno ...[text shortened]... at square one: dependent upon man. Well, we can't be right about everything, now can we?[/b]
22 Aug 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHPaine, like the rest of us, was not privy to your Secret Decoder Ring.
You'd almost think that Paine was claiming Christians would be fast and loose with their morality. Unbeknownst to Paine, morality is the lesser part of the Christian's spiritual life. The spiritual life provided by God far exceeds any code of conduct which could either artificially or naturally be called morality. Integrity is the operative mindset for the Christian, not morality.
22 Aug 06
Originally posted by no1marauder"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight."
Yes, a Man is dependent on himself to use his reason. We're always back on this "square one". Do you think that is some kind of refutation?
Having my choice between trusting the best that man can do (just look to "Age of Reason" for some glaring examples of that short-sighted approach), or trusting in God, I've placed my confidence in God.
22 Aug 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHI fail to see your objection to that point. Oh, that's right...we're all inherently evil sinners thanks to Adam and "the woman". Are you dizzy yet?
Sadly, Paine did not realize that such a stance of elimination placed him right back at square one: dependent upon man. Well, we can't be right about everything, now can we?
22 Aug 06
2 edits
Originally posted by FreakyKBHActually you've placed your trust in what other men have told you about God in a series of writings and in other men's interpretation of these author's writings.
"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight."
Having my choice between trusting the best that man can do (just look to "Age of Reason" for some glaring examples of that short-sighted approach), or trusting in God, I've placed my confidence in God.
EDIT: Or as Paine said:
But when the divine gift of reason begins to expand itself in the mind and calls man to reflection, he then reads and contemplates God and His works, and not in the books pretending to be revelation. The creation is the Bible of the true believer in God. Everything in this vast volume inspires him with sublime ideas of the Creator. The little and paltry, and often obscene, tales of the Bible sink into wretchedness when put in comparison with this mighty work.
22 Aug 06
Originally posted by David CPaine insisted that man should never rely on anyone other than himself. Therefore, even Paine's descriptions of various tidbits of knowledge--- if not gained as a result of his own effort--- is all suspect, all hearsay.
I fail to see your objection to that point. Oh, that's right...we're all inherently evil sinners thanks to Adam and "the woman". Are you dizzy yet?
His biblical knowledge was woefully inadequate for him to surmise anything but contradiction, caught as he was in a trap he set for himself. Professing himself to be wise, he ended up looking a fool. Adding insult to injury, he made claims about supposed spiritual matters which the Bible never even hints at, let alone addresses. Agendas have a way of doing funny things to our thinking, so it's to be expected.