1. Joined
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    14 Aug '06 03:09
    My question is can we legislate morality? There are two aspects to this question. The first aspect is the question of being able to create a law that is devoid of morality. Is this possible? For example, a speed limit is created by law as a moral judgement as to what is best or good for society. In fact, there are no laws devoid of a moral code of some kind. All laws are based upon morality. It only comes down to what moral code does one want to be governed by? Should this moral code be based upon humanism, religion, etc. or should it be based on a majority consensus of some kind or be dictated to the majority in order to protect a minority populace? Who is to say which moral code is superior and why?

    The second aspect to the question revolves around whether or not laws dictate to society what is moral. Let me explain. When abortion was made legal in the US by the Supreme Court in the early 1970's, abortion was overwhelmingly viewed as "immoral" and rejected by most Americans. Today, however, abortion is seen by the majority in a much more favorable light and seems to be supported by the majority of Americans. Is this due to the fact that the general populace has subconsciencely adopted the moral code of the state in which they reside? Could this happen with gay marriage? Today polls show that the majority of Americans oppose gay marriage. If the Supreme Court makes it legal, however, will America then embrace it as they do abortion today in a few decades or so?
  2. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    14 Aug '06 03:471 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    My question is can we legislate morality? There are two aspects to this question. The first aspect is the question of being able to create a law that is devoid of morality. Is this possible? For example, a speed limit is created by law as a moral judgement as to what is best or good for society. In fact, there are no laws devoid of a moral code of some k egal, however, will America then embrace it as they do abortion today in a few decades or so?
    My question is can we legislate morality?

    This sentence is awkwardly written and I am unsure what you mean by it based on the grammar alone, which is all I really have aside from any prejudices I might have about you. Once can legislate; one can legislate about X; but the way the sentence is written confuses me. What does it mean to legislate X as opposed to legislate about X?

    The first aspect is the question of being able to create a law that is devoid of morality.

    Sure. Your example of the speeding law is indeed devoid of morality. It's not that speeding is immoral; the situation is that the people have agreed to set aside certain areas for public use (roads) and have decided to restrict the speed one could drive on these roads because the people want to be safer. It's not about what's right and wrong. Therefore the rest of this section of your post is based on a false premise and can be discarded.

    Is this due to the fact that the general populace has subconsciencely adopted the moral code of the state in which they reside?

    I think you have a good point. People will modify their sense of morality subconciously based on what the laws are on average in my opinion, though I haven't seen any studies about it. This is a good argument against free will and thus Christianity, by the way.

    Could this happen with gay marriage?

    Sure.
  3. Standard memberKellyJay
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    14 Aug '06 07:26
    Originally posted by whodey
    My question is can we legislate morality? There are two aspects to this question. The first aspect is the question of being able to create a law that is devoid of morality. Is this possible? For example, a speed limit is created by law as a moral judgement as to what is best or good for society. In fact, there are no laws devoid of a moral code of some k ...[text shortened]... egal, however, will America then embrace it as they do abortion today in a few decades or so?
    They can legislate seat beats, open beer in a car, how fast you
    can drive, what you can smoke, how much tax money on top of
    the price of anything you buy, what can be taught to children
    in a school, where you can pray, and so on, so why do you think
    anyone with the power to legislate couldn't or wouldn't push their
    moral opinions on you at the drop of a hat?
    Kelly
  4. Standard memberXanthosNZ
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    14 Aug '06 07:42
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    They can legislate seat beats, open beer in a car, how fast you
    can drive, what you can smoke, how much tax money on top of
    the price of anything you buy, what can be taught to children
    in a school, where you can pray, and so on, so why do you think
    anyone with the power to legislate couldn't or wouldn't push their
    moral opinions on you at the drop of a hat?
    Kelly
    I'm pretty sure they can't legislate where you can pray if you pray how you are supposed to.

    Luke 18:9-14 (Phi) Then he [Jesus] gave this illustration to certain people who were confident of their own goodness and looked down on others. "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one was a Pharisee, the other was a tax-collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed like this with himself, 'O God, I do thank thee that I am not like the rest of mankind, greedy, dishonest, impure, or even like that tax-collector over there. I fast twice every week; I give away a tenth-part of all my income.' But the tax-collector stood in a distant corner, scarcely daring to look up to Heaven, and with a gesture of despair, said, "God, have mercy on a sinner like me.' I assure you that he was the man who went home justified in God's sight, rather than the other one. For everyone who sets himself up as somebody will become a nobody, and the man who makes himself nobody will become somebody.
  5. Standard memberKellyJay
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    14 Aug '06 14:48
    Originally posted by XanthosNZ
    I'm pretty sure they can't legislate where you can pray if you pray how you are supposed to.

    Luke 18:9-14 (Phi) Then he [Jesus] gave this illustration to certain people who were confident of their own goodness and looked down on others. "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one was a Pharisee, the other was a tax-collector. The Pharisee stood and pray ...[text shortened]... omebody will become a nobody, and the man who makes himself nobody will become somebody.
    You think people can pray out loud in a class room?
    Kelly
  6. Donationrwingett
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    14 Aug '06 15:09
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    You think people can pray out loud in a class room?
    Kelly
    Poor, poor, persecuted christians. You certainly have honed that self-righteous martyr complex to a fine point, haven't you?
  7. Standard memberKellyJay
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    14 Aug '06 15:13
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Poor, poor, persecuted christians. You certainly have honed that self-righteous martyr complex to a fine point, haven't you?
    Who was saying anything about being persecuted Christian or
    otherwise? My point is that people will make laws on anything
    they want, nothing more. Your desire to label me with the
    self-righteous martyr complex is simply your brain fart not
    mine.
    Kelly
  8. Standard memberXanthosNZ
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    14 Aug '06 15:15
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    You think people can pray out loud in a class room?
    Kelly
    My point is that as Jesus teaches you don't pray so people know you are praying you pray because of yourself. If you believe in that stuff anyway.
    When they start legistlating against thoughts come talk to me.
  9. Standard memberKellyJay
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    14 Aug '06 15:341 edit
    Originally posted by XanthosNZ
    My point is that as Jesus teaches you don't pray so people know you are praying you pray because of yourself. If you believe in that stuff anyway.
    When they start legistlating against thoughts come talk to me.
    "My question is can we legislate morality..."
    My point went to that, and my answer included a part on prayer and
    other things. I don't mind talking about prayer, but it should be in
    another thread if this one were to stay on topic.
    Kelly
  10. Joined
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    14 Aug '06 15:42
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    You think people can pray out loud in a class room?
    Kelly
    they give you a minute to pray when the announcements are on, nobody does anyways.
  11. Standard membertelerion
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    14 Aug '06 15:49
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    They can legislate seat beats, open beer in a car, how fast you
    can drive, what you can smoke, how much tax money on top of
    the price of anything you buy, what can be taught to children
    in a school, where you can pray, and so on, so why do you think
    anyone with the power to legislate couldn't or wouldn't push their
    moral opinions on you at the drop of a hat?
    Kelly
    True. Well, except for the part about "seat beats."
  12. Standard membertelerion
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    14 Aug '06 15:50
    Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
    they give you a minute to pray when the announcements are on, nobody does anyways.
    Exactly. I was going to say the same thing.

    Funny thing about moments of silence in school. When I visit my daughters elementary school, the only people praying during that moment of silence are a couple teachers or administrators. The kids just try to contain themselves while they wait. I don't know why we even bother having one. When I was a xian, I never encountered trouble offering up a quiet prayer. I certainly didn't need to stop school to do it.
  13. Joined
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    14 Aug '06 17:21
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    .......so why do you think
    anyone with the power to legislate couldn't or wouldn't push their
    moral opinions on you at the drop of a hat?
    Kelly[/b]
    This is my point. Anyone in public office who legislates a law is shoving their moral code down our collective throats. The only time people get up in arms about this, however, is when it is percieved that this moral code is related to religious belief in some way. Then all of a sudden it becomes an issue of the seperation of church and state and must be stopped. On the other side of the coin, if you base your moral code on anything that is devoid of religion, such as secular humanism, it instantly becomes golden. Why is the moral code of secularism superior to that of a religious moral code? Who makes this moral judgement? Should the populace be able to decide such matters on what is the popular moral code or be dictated to by the minority as to what is best for society?
  14. Joined
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    14 Aug '06 17:25
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    [b]My question is can we legislate morality?

    This sentence is awkwardly written and I am unsure what you mean by it based on the grammar alone, which is all I really have aside from any prejudices I might have about you.
    Thats OK. If you are willing to over look my grammer I will try to overlook some of your posts like the one about sphincters.😀
  15. Joined
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    14 Aug '06 17:29
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Once can legislate; one can legislate about X; but the way the sentence is written confuses me. What does it mean to legislate X as opposed to legislate about X?
    I was not attempting to make a distinction between legislating about X verses to legislate X. My general point was that legislation/laws = moral code of some kind.
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