Legislating morality

Originally posted by whodey
No kidding. Jefferson was influenced by his writings, however. That is unless you can prove Jefferson could not read.

Yes, Jefferson was influenced by Locke's and many other people's writings. Some of them were Christians and some weren't. What is your point, if any?

Originally posted by no1marauder
The fact that Jefferson was a Christian isn't proof that Christianity was a "major influence" on the Declaration. That's absurd. You would have to show some actual nexus between uniquely Christian beliefs AND the innovations that the Framers adopted. You haven't even tried and when you do, you'll find the cupboard is pretty bare.

EDIT: Here's a good a ...[text shortened]... Jefferson's religious beliefs: http://www.adherents.com/people/pj/Thomas_Jefferson.html

The Christian influence can be seen in the actual text of the Declaration of Independence.

1. "....the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitles them..."
The Declaration said the dracstic action that they were taking was made necessary by Christian, biblical law, which was also known as "Natural law".
2. "...they are endowed by thier Creator with certain unalienable rights..." The Declaration maintained that the rights of the colonists came from God, and that they could not be taken away.
3. "...appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world..." The Declaration pictured itself as going to court, basing their case on biblical law, with the God of the Bible as their judge.
4. "...with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor." The Declaration declared to King George and to the world that they were trusting in the Christian God of the Bible for protection in their monumental endeavor.

Originally posted by whodey
The Christian influence can be seen in the actual text of the Declaration of Independence.

1. "....the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitles them..."
The Declaration said the dracstic action that they were taking was made necessary by Christian, biblical law, which was also known as "Natural law".
2. "...they are endowed by thier Creator with cer ...[text shortened]... usting in the Christian God of the Bible for protection in their monumental endeavor.

Where's a "Christian God" in there? Where's Jesus? Where's some Bible quotes?

You're reading your 20th Century Christianity into an 18th Century document. That's foolish and ahistorical. And Biblical law was certainly NOT "Natural Law".

Originally posted by whodey
The Christian influence can be seen in the actual text of the Declaration of Independence.

1. "....the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitles them..."
The Declaration said the dracstic action that they were taking was made necessary by Christian, biblical law, which was also known as "Natural law".
2. "...they are endowed by thier Creator with cer usting in the Christian God of the Bible for protection in their monumental endeavor.

You ought to puke out that hook, line and sinker you've swallowed. Here's Jefferson on Jesus :
"[Jesus'] parentage was obscure; his condition poor, his education null; his natural endowments great; his life correct and innocent: he was meek, benevolent, patient, firm, disinterested, & of the sublimest eloquence."
Paine wrote :"Nothing that is here said can apply, even with the most distant disrespect, to the real character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous and an amiable man. The morality that he preached and practised was of the most benevolent kind; and though similar systems of morality had been preached by Confucius, and by some of the Greek philosophers, many years before; by the Quakers since; and by many good men in all ages, it has not been exceeded by any."

and :
"It is upon this plain narrative of facts, together with another case I am going to mention, that the Christian Mythologists, calling themselves the Christian Church, have erected their fable, which, for absurdity and extravagance, is not exceeded by anything that is to be found in the mythology of the ancients."

Originally posted by frogstomp
You ought to puke out that hook, line and sinker you've swallowed. Here's Jefferson on Jesus :
"[Jesus'] parentage was obscure; his condition poor, his education null; his natural endowments great; his life correct and innocent: he was meek, benevolent, patient, firm, disinterested, & of the sublimest eloquence."
Paine wrote :"Nothing that is here sa nce, is not exceeded by anything that is to be found in the mythology of the ancients."

notice the word "natural " .
Christians have less claim to the word Natural then witches do since Wicca is heavily endowed with " Natural gods".
Now if you christians want to claim that the Holy Spirit is the same as the Source maybe you might be able to forge a philosophical merger with those of the Wiccan faith.
That being just an aside: The fact that the founding fathers decided NOT to put the christian god into the constitution , and that fact, alone, ought to tell you something.

LOL edit: I meant to reply to one of Whodey's posts, but that witch must of cast a spell on my typing fingers.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Where's a "Christian God" in there? Where's Jesus? Where's some Bible quotes?

You're reading your 20th Century Christianity into an 18th Century document. That's foolish and ahistorical. And Biblical law was certainly NOT "Natural Law".

Where's a "Christian God" in there? Where's Jesus? Where's some Bible quotes?
So, in your esteemed opinion, there must be quotes from the Scriptures in order to ascertain the source of the writer's information? Get real! What else could have possibly informed the framers' writings if not the Bible!?! Your obstinance is laughable.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]Where's a "Christian God" in there? Where's Jesus? Where's some Bible quotes?
So, in your esteemed opinion, there must be quotes from the Scriptures in order to ascertain the source of the writer's information? Get real! What else could have possibly informed the framers' writings if not the Bible!?! Your obstinance is laughable.[/b]

Show us where in the U.S. Constitution they wrote any of the precepts of Christianity.
For a smartass silly boy like you that should be easy to do.

Originally posted by frogstomp
You ought to puke out that hook, line and sinker you've swallowed. Here's Jefferson on Jesus :
"[Jesus'] parentage was obscure; his condition poor, his education null; his natural endowments great; his life correct and innocent: he was meek, benevolent, patient, firm, disinterested, & of the sublimest eloquence."
Paine wrote :"Nothing that is here sa ...[text shortened]... nce, is not exceeded by anything that is to be found in the mythology of the ancients."

I never said Jefferson was a Christian. I thought him to be a Deist. It is no 1maurader that insists that he was a Christian. You can have Paine if you want him. I never said that Paine was a Christian. Neither did I say that ALL the Founding Fathers were Chrisitans. What I said was that 53 of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Indepedence seem to have been Chrsitian. Not only that, Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration, studied the Christian Philosopher Locke and many of Locke's writings and ideas are almost copied verbatum within the Declaration. This is the Christian religious heritage that helped frame our country. Like it or not our country was not formed in a vacuum devoid of the rich Christian heritage that began with the Pilgrams. I know its painful for some but the truth is unmistakable. You can view them to be witches if you like.

Originally posted by frogstomp
Show us where in the U.S. Constitution they wrote any of the precepts of Christianity.
For a smartass silly boy like you that should be easy to do.

As a public service, I'll dumb the concept down enough for you to get your grubby little mind around. Prior to the concept of the rights and sovereignty of the self, kings were considered the authority on planet earth.

Something caused that thinking to change. Something informed that impetus. Here's the question: what was the source of that information? Twenty points if you get it right on the first guess; ten if you get the answer from No1.

Originally posted by frogstomp
Show us where in the U.S. Constitution they wrote any of the precepts of Christianity.
For a smartass silly boy like you that should be easy to do.

It is ironic that at the end of the Consitution it records the year of its ratification. "The seventeenth day of September in the year of our Lord, one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven." Perhaps their Lord they were referring to was Buddah or the Deist God, no?

Originally posted by whodey
I never said Jefferson was a Christian. I thought him to be a Deist. It is no 1maurader that insists that he was a Christian. You can have Paine if you want him. I never said that Paine was a Christian. Neither did I say that ALL the Founding Fathers were Chrisitans. What I said was that 53 of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Indepedence seem to hav ...[text shortened]... s painful for some but the truth is unmistakable. You can view them to be witches if you like.

BTW the declaration has nothing to do with with the creation of the United States of America , which didn't exist during the span of the Continental Congress or the Articles of Confederatiion. So whoever wrote or signed the declaration ,which btw was changesd by the CC from the original, doesn't really matter in the creation of the United States government.

Originally posted by whodey
You miss my entire point which is if a country has a religious heritage they should be proud of it and not attempt to suppress it in the name of seperation of church and state.

You already know I don't agree with that point.

Originally posted by frogstomp
BTW the declaration has nothing to do with with the creation of the United States of America , which didn't exist during the span of the Continental Congress or the Articles of Confederatiion. So whoever wrote or signed the declaration ,which btw was changesd by the CC from the original, doesn't really matter in the creation of the United States government.

The idiocy of this post speaks volumes relative to your understanding (?) of history.

Originally posted by whodey
You know what I mean. I mean if they pointed soley to those ten commandments instead of what is written already in our laws they would be laughed at.

I could imagine a clever lawyer working those into his arguments without having to rely solely on them, especially if judge and/or jury are christians.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
I value principles over historical artifacts. It wouldn't bother me one iota if the bell was melted down.

The Liberty Bell is more than a historical artifact. It represents Liberty. Get it?