1. Illinois
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    03 Jun '09 05:42
    To get us started, here are several points supporting the case that Jesus Christ is, in fact, God.***
    __________

    (1)
    In the monotheistic Jewish culture, to honor God meant to confess and live in the light of his exclusive status as the maker, sustainer, and sovereign King of all creation. To honor any creature, no matter how wonderful, as a deity was to detract from the honor due to God. As Philo of Alexandria, a first-century Jewish philosopher, put it, "They who deify mortal things neglect the honour due to God." It is in this cultural setting that Jesus asserted that it was God the Father's purpose "that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father." By "the Son," of course, Jesus meant himself.

    Jesus went on to say that anyone failing to accord him such honor actually dishonors the Father. "Anyone who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him" (John 5:23). Linking the honor due God with the honor due anyone else in this way was unprecedented in the Jewish Scriptures. That Jesus is here claiming divine honor is evident from the immediate context.

    The book of Hebrews asserts that Jesus "is worthy of more glory than Moses, just as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself" (3:3). Moses is to Jesus as a house is to the builder of the house. In other words, Moses is part of the creation, the "house," and Jesus is being described as the "builder of the house," or the one responsible for the creation. "For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God" (v. 4). Hebrews is telling us to honor Jesus as we would the "builder" of creation -- God.


    (2)
    The book of Revelation contains doxological songs or hymns in praise of Jesus Christ, there represented by the Lamb, paralleling its own doxological hymns to God. These doxologies show that Lamb is appropriately worshipped on equal terms with God:

    "Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created" (Rev. 4:11).

    "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing... To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever" (Rev. 5:12-13).

    The doxology does not praise Jesus to the exclusion of God, but includes the giving of eternal honor and glory to Jesus Christ within the monotheistic Jewish practice of ascribing such glory to God (note the similarity of these doxologies to the one in 1 Chronicles 29:10-11). We should not underestimate the boldness that was necessary to alter these traditional Jewish forms. By constructing such doxologies to God and Christ together, or even to Christ alone (2 Peter 3:18), the New Testament writers were exalting Jesus Christ to the very level of God.


    (3)
    As Stephen, the first Christian martyr, was being stoned to death, he prayed to Jesus. "He prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Then he knelt down and cried out in a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he died" (Acts 7:59-60).

    The word translated "prayed" in the NRSV (likewise the NIV) is a form of epikaleo, which literally means to "call on" someone. When used in religious contexts of appealing to a heavenly or supernatural being for help, epikaleo is another technical term for prayer. Thus, it is undeniable that in this context Stephen was praying to Jesus. The significance of this act of invoking Jesus is only heightened by the occasion: the heavenly being on whom one calls at the moment of death for spiritual repose is quite simply one's God. Stephen entrusted the "Lord Jesus" with his spirit. The same writer, Luke, is the only Gospel writer to report that Jesus had entrusted his spirit to the Father at the moment of his death (Luke 23:46; cf. Ps. 31:5). Clearly, Luke understands Jesus to be performing a function of deity by receiving Stephen's spirit -- and in this context Stephen's calling on Jesus is as significant an act of prayer as one could imagine.


    (4)
    Daniel and his Jewish friends had refused to "serve" the image of Nebuchadnezzar or to "serve" Darius, identifying themselves as those who "serve" only their God, the living God (Dan. 3:12, 14, 17, 18, 28; 6:16, 20). In this setting, the vision of people from all nations "serving" the Son of Man presents a startling contrast. The "service" that Daniel and his friends refused to give to Nebuchadnezzar's image or to Darius, Daniel envisions all nations giving to the heavenly Son of Man.

    Daniel's reference to the Son of Man being "served" implies a divine status for the Son of Man, not merely because of the use of that one word, but because of the context in which it is used. The universal sovereignty attributed to the Son of Man is earlier attributed to Daniel's God by the Babylonian and Persian kings:

    "The signs and wonders that the Most High God has worked for me I am pleased to recount. How great are his signs, how mighty his wonders! His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his sovereignty is from generation to generation" (4:2-3).

    "When that period was over, I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me. I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored the one who lives forever. For his sovereignty is an everlasting sovereignty, and his kingdom endures from generation to generation" (4:34).

    "I make a decree, that in all my royal dominion people should tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: For he is the living God, enduring forever. His kingdom shall never be destroyed, and his dominion has no end" (6:26).

    This language of a kingdom that will not be destroyed and that will endure forever is then applied to the kingdom of the Son of Man:

    "To him was given dominion and glory and kingship, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not pass away, and his kingship is one that shall never be destroyed" (7:14).

    Within the larger context, the reference to all peoples "serving" the Son of Man is confirmed as an expression of religious devotion. The One whom you regard as the Ruler of your entire universe for all time is by definition your God, and it would be the height of folly not to render religious devotion or service to him.


    (5)
    The Old Testament closely links love for God and obedience to his commandments. In the Ten Commandments, the Lord told Israel that he expected them to "love me and keep my commandments" (Exod. 20:6; Deut. 5:10). The Lord "maintains covenant loyalty with those who love him and keep his commandments" (Deut. 7:9). "You shall love the Lord your God, therefore, and keep his charge, his decrees, his ordinances, and his commandments always" (Deut. 11:1; see also 11:13, 22; 19:9; 30:6-8 16, 20; Josh. 22:5; Neh. 1:5; Dan. 9:4). Israelites were to put loyalty to the Lord above everything else, even loyalty to their families (Deut. 13:6-11; 33:9).

    Yet Jesus expected to be given the same kind of absolute devotion -- the same unqualified commitment of the heart and life -- that we ought to give to God. Jesus put love for him above family ties: "Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me" (Matt. 10:37). A similar statement in Luke puts it more starkly: "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple" (Luke 14:26).

    In the Gospel of John, Jesus repeatedly associates love for him with obedience to his commandments: "If you love me, you will keep my commandments" (14:15) ; "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me" (14:21) ; "If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love' (15:10). When Jeus connects obedience with love, biblically literate Jewish hearers would immediately think of the associations between obeying God's commandments and loving God.

    The point is, Jesus Christ comes first in our lives -- our love for him is our highest priority, and nothing will interfere with, or stop us from, loving him forever. That is what it means to know Jesus as our Lord and God.


    (6)[quote] If Christ existed as a divine person before his human life, then he is the definitive revelation of the nature of God because his nature is, in fact, the nature of God. On the other hand, if Christ did not exist before his human life, then he is a revelation of the nature of God only in the sense that in his words and actions we see how God wants us to live. We may put the question this way: Was Jesus a man through whom God was revealing himself, or was he God revealing himself as a man?

    One of the most important biblical passages for our understanding of the person of Jesus Christ is Philippians 2:6-11. In these six verses, Paul taught that Christ was a preexistent person who was fully God and yet humbled himself by becoming human and dying on a cross (vv. 6-8). In verse 6, Paul says that Christ, "though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited." Christ existed "in the form of God" in heaven before he became a man. Thus, Paul goes on immediately to say that Christ "emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness, " and that he was "found in human form" (v. 7). Clearly, Philippians 2 does, indeed, speak of Christ as a preexistent divine person who humbled himself by becoming a human being. ...
  2. Illinois
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    03 Jun '09 05:43
    [continued]

    We have here, then, dating from less than twenty-five years after Jesus' death and resurrection, an apostolic writing affirming the belief in Christ's divine preexistence.

    Also consider the following statements by Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels:

    "For I have come to call not the righteous but sinners" (Matt. 9:13; cf. Mark 2:17; Luke 5:32).

    "The Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many" (Matt. 20:28; Mark 10:45).

    "I must proclaim the good news of the kingdom of God to the other cities also; for I was sent for this purpose" (Luke 4:43; cf. Mark 1:38).

    "I came to bring fire to the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled" (Luke 12:49).

    "Do you thin that I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division" (Luke 12:51; cf. Matt. 10:34).

    "For the Son of Man came to seek out and to save the lost" (Luke 19:10).

    From the Gospel of John:

    "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now I am here. I did not come on my own, but he sent me" (8:42).

    "Can you say that the one whome the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, "I am God's Son"? (10:36).

    "Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going to God..." (13:3).

    "I came from the Father and have come into the world; again, I am leaving the world and am going to the Father" (16:28).

    Paul's epistles:

    "But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Because you are sons, God has sent for the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" (Gal. 4:4-6).

    "For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin, he condemned sin in the flesh" (Rom 8:3).


    __________

    ***taken from the book, "Putting Jesus In His Place: The Case For The Deity Of Christ," by Robert M. Bowman, Jr. and J. Ed Komoszewski.
  3. England
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    03 Jun '09 12:39
    ok.
  4. Joined
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    03 Jun '09 13:12
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    To get us started, here are several points supporting the case that Jesus Christ is, in fact, God.***
    __________

    (1) [quote]In the monotheistic Jewish culture, to honor God meant to confess and live in the light of his exclusive status as the maker, sustainer, and sovereign King of all creation. To honor any creature, no matter how wonderful, as a ...[text shortened]... g. ...
    What are you tring to do, give Robbie heart failure? 😛
  5. warum?
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    03 Jun '09 14:00
    You spelled deity wrong!🙂
  6. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    03 Jun '09 14:11
    Originally posted by Crushing Day
    You spelled deity wrong!🙂
    Only when he tries to spell it on his own. When he does a cut and paste job his spelling is much better.
  7. Joined
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    03 Jun '09 15:273 edits
    ======================================
    The book of Hebrews asserts that Jesus "is worthy of more glory than Moses, just as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself" (3:3). Moses is to Jesus as a house is to the builder of the house. In other words, Moses is part of the creation, the "house," and Jesus is being described as the "builder of the house," or the one responsible for the creation. "For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God" (v. 4). Hebrews is telling us to honor Jesus as we would the "builder" of creation -- God.
    =======================================


    The book of Hebrews does reveal that Jesus Christ is God incarnate. But to take a little closer look at chapter 3 the "building" here is not the old creation but the living new creation of - God builded into His people and they builded into Him. In short the "building" here is ultimately the church and the New Jerusalem, the culmination of the church. That is the living Building where God and man mutual dwell for eternity.

    Why? The reason is that to be a part of the "house" is conditional upon our cooperating with Christ's full salvation. If it was simply because of man's being created it would not be so conditioned.

    Right here - "But Christ was [faithful] as a Son over His house, whose house we are if indeed we hold fast the boldness and the boast of hope firm to the end.( Heb. 3:6)

    The building is the house over which Christ is the head. - " ... whose house WE ARE". "We" meaning the saved believers in Christ. "We", the redeemed and saved in Christ's salvation (including Moses) are the house of Christ. But we have to be built into that house through our letting Christ transform us in His salvation to the end - "IF ... indeed we hold fast the boldness and the boast of hope firm to the end."

    Yes, the Builder of all things is God. And the entire created universe is God's and is Christ's (1:2; 2:10)

    But the footenote of the Recovery Version on Hebrews 3:6 is helpful. I have added a few words in brackets to clarify.

    ============================================
    In Old Testament times the hiouse of God was the house of Israel (Lev. 22:18; Num. 12:7), symbolized by the tabernacle or the temple, which was in ISael's midst (Exo. 25:8; Ezek. 37:26-27). Today, the house of God is actually the church (1 Tim. 3:15; 1 Pet. 4:17). The children of Israel, as people of God, are a type of [new covenant people indwelt by the Spirit of Christ through redemption and regeneration. ] That is the New Testament believers (1 Cor. 9:24 - 10:11)

    The entire history of the Old Testament house of God prefigures the church of the new covenant.

    Why is Christ counted for more glory than Moses in being the builder of God's new covenant house ?

    Moses had the human nature, which is fit for God's building, but he did not have the divine nature, which is suitable for being the builder. In contrast, Christ in His humanity is the good material for God's building -

    (the foundation stone - Isa. 28:16;
    the cornerstone - Matt. 21:42;
    the topstone - Zech. 4:7;
    and the living stone that produces the saved as living stones - 1 Pet. 2:4-5)


    Moreover, in His divinity He is the Builder.
    ==========================================

    Christ not only has the humanity as the material for God's building but Has the Divinity which is suitable to be the Builder of God's building. Therefore He is counted as having more honor than Moses. Christ is more all-inclusive, more all-extensive.
  8. Illinois
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    03 Jun '09 18:39
    Originally posted by Crushing Day
    You spelled deity wrong!🙂
    😳
  9. Illinois
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    03 Jun '09 18:431 edit
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Only when he tries to spell it on his own. When he does a cut and paste job his spelling is much better.
    Ouch. Nice one.

    EDIT: In my own defense, this information was not cut and paste, but manually copied from the book (which I own).
  10. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    03 Jun '09 18:53
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    Ouch. Nice one.

    EDIT: In my own defense, this information was not cut and paste, but manually copied from the book (which I own).
    You'd might get more participation if you summarized it in a few paragraphs instead of typing out the whole book.
  11. Account suspended
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    03 Jun '09 20:084 edits
    Originally posted by whodey
    What are you tring to do, give Robbie heart failure? 😛
    actually Whodey there is nothing as potent as truth, and what you have read will not last long under scrutiny, for it is not truth, and as in life , as in chess,

    on the chessboard lies and hypocrisy do not survive long. The creative combination lays bare the presumption of a lie: the merciless fact, culminating in a checkmate, contradicts the hypocrite

    - Emanuel Lasker

    therfore let us take a look at the first scriptural reference, revelation 4:11, for it has long been the subject of controversy.

    trinitarians are want to quote it in defence of the deity of Christ, but it is without foundation, for the whole basis of their argument is that it is regarded as addressed to Christ, which is quite false.

    The basis for this is the confusion caused, in the second and third centuries when the 'divine name' was removed and the Greek words , 'kyrios', for lord and 'theos', for God were substituted, but such was not the case from the beginning, that notwithstanding, the scriptures themselves clearly expose the folly of their reasoning.

    the verse itself reads, and i quote from the above,'"Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created" (Rev. 4:11).

    now this cannot be with reference to Christ, for he himself is a creation, and created all things with the exception of one, that being God, for he has always existed. if you look to the previous chapter, the Christ symbolised by the lamb, is described as, and i quote'

     “And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God." NWT

    you will notice the reference to Christ as the beginning of the creation by God, is this in harmony with other parts of scripture, entirely, let us take a look at Colossians chapter 1:15

    "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation". Col 1:15, NWT

    therefore it is quite clear that Christ had a beginning, was a created entity, and created all things with the exception of one, that being God himself, thus it is relatively easy now, to regard the scripture in question as being with reference to God, and not to the Christ, as many translators have realised.

    further to this, it is interesting to note what Christ himself stated with regard to the worship of other 'creatures', the account of Matthew chapter 4, is of interest, for here Christ quotes directly from the Hebrew scriptures,

    Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, and he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.” Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” Matthew 4:8-10

    you will of course note, the quotation, 'it is to him alone you must render sacred service, or worship'. thus Christ himself taught that no one but the Almighty was to receive the adoration and worship that was due the father, all other acts being idolatrous.

    is this statement also in harmony with the rest of the inspired word of God, most certainly, for it is written, very famously at Psalm 83:18, and here I will use the King James version, for it preserves the divine name and the same sentiments, that Christ quoted and taught others to observe,

    "That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth." Psalm 83:18 KJ

    you will once again notice the reference to the divine name and the word 'alone'.

    now with just one casual and brief look at the first reference quoted we can clearly deduce that it does not stand up under the scrutiny of scripture. I do not blame Jaywill or the original poster or anyone else for that matter, for the issue has been clouded because of firstly the removal of the divine name, which evidently was present in the original text as well as the Septuagint, but was later removed, thus making it quite difficult for honest seekers of scriptural truth, to make a distinction between the nature of Christ and the nature of the Almighty, however , the matter is quite clear when viewed from the backdrop of Hebrew scripture, the teachings of the Christ himself, and when examined in the immediate context and the context of the bible as a whole. I hope this will aid your understanding, regards robbie.

    P.S. i can look at each and every one of these points in turn, some are tenuous to the extreme and will fall like a house of cards once they are scrutinised under the light of scripture, this was perhaps the strongest, but it itself does not hold water when scrutinised as has been evidently demonstrated.

    I apologise for the length of this post 🙂
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    03 Jun '09 22:136 edits
    =========================================
    '"Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created" (Rev. 4:11).

    now this cannot be with reference to Christ, for he himself is a creation, and created all things with the exception of one, that being God, for he has always existed. if you look to the previous chapter, the Christ symbolised by the lamb, is described as, and i quote'
    ===========================================


    The question here is TO WHOM is the praise in verse 11 addressed ?

    It is addressed to God the Creator for Revelation chapter 4 is focused on God as the Creator. So we have "The twenty-four elders will fall before Him who sits upon the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever and they cast thier cowns before the throne, saying, Worthy ..." (See 10,11)

    Does this mean that God is NOTincarnate in the man Jesus? No it certainly does not. For in the NEXT chapter, 5, we are introduced to the Lamb, the Redeemer Christ. And the high praises of the universe are "To Him Who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever." (5:13)

    This is the praise closing this chapter 5 rendered by " ... EVERY creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea and all things in them ...".

    In other words UNIVERSAL praise to God and the Lamb of God.

    Now, let's take a close look at the relationship between the scene in chapter 4 and that of chapter 5. Your utmost attention, reader, is requested.

    In chapter 4 we see God the Creator on His throne. And we see the seven lamps of fire burning before His throne which are "the seven Spirits of God" (4:5)

    "And there were seven lamps of fire buring before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God."

    To be brief, the seven Spirits of God are the Spirit of God. That is the "eternal Spirit" (Heb. 9:14) . God accomplishes His work through the eternal Spirit. The seven lamps of fire before the throne are told to be "the seven Spirits of God"

    These are NOT some other matter besides the Holy Spirit of God. But in chapter 4 the Creator and the Holy Spirit as the seven Spirits of God are mentioned.

    Briefly, in chapter five the Lamb is introduced. And the now seven eyes of the Lamb are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth:

    "And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a Lamb standing as having [just] been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." (5:6)

    What was the seven lamps in chapter 4 are now the seven eyes of the Lamb in chapter 5. You cannot separate the EYES of a person from the person. You look into their EYES and you look into their very being.

    How did the seven lamps in chapter 4 become the seven eyes of the Lamb in chapter 5 ? This transition represents the incarnation of God into a man. The eternal Spirit of God has "picked up" something. They have picked up the humanity of the slain and resurrected Redeemer, the Lamb of God, Christ.

    Now the eternal Spirit of God are in the very eyes of the incarnated, slain, and resurrected God-man Jesus. This is a sign showing us the plain word teaching that:

    " ... God in Christ was reconciling the world to Himself, not accounting their offenses to them, ..." (2 Cor. 5:19)

    "God IN CHRIST" is the plain teaching. The sign in Revelation to depict this incarnation of God in a man is the seven Spirits before God in chapter 4 become the seven eyes of the slain and standing Lamb in chapter 5.

    This is marvelous and it cannot be twisted by Russellism's rebellion against God's economy.

    How else in Revelation do we see God in Christ, God in the Lamb? We see the same truth in the closing chapters:

    "And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb." (22:1)

    Notice that there are not two thrones but one throne - "the throne of God and of the Lamb". And the water of life signifying the Holy Spirit is pouring out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. You have the Father within the Son. And pouring out of the throne of God and the Lamb is the water of life as the Holy Spirit. This is the Triune God.

    How do I know that the one throne has God in the Lamb upon it? It is because we are told in (21:23) -

    "And the city has no need of the sun or the moon that they should shine in it, for the glory of God illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb." (Rev. 21:23)

    The light is God. The lamp out from which the light shines is the Lamb. The Lamb is the lamp. God within is the light. God the Father in the Son the Redeemer is on the ONE throne - the throne of God and of the Lamb. The LAMB LAMP is the incarnated God as a man to be our Redeemer.

    We see in Revelation that theTriune God, the Trinity is for DISPENSING the life of God into the city as the water of life. The Trinity is therefore for the impartation and the dispensing of God as life into man.
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    03 Jun '09 22:39
    We have seen that the throne in eternity as shown in Revelation 21 and 22 is a singular throne. It is the throne of God and of the Lamb. And out of the throne pours forth the Spirit as the crystal clear water of life (See John 7:39).

    The Spirit of God in Revelation is a Person and not just a force - "He who has an ear let him hear WHAT THE SPIRIT SAYS to the churches." The references are in chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation.

    The Spirit of God is a Person and also speaks in chapter 14:

    "Yes, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works follow with them." (Rev. 14:13)

    The Russellite will twist these passages for the Russellite is in rebellion against the dispensing of God as life into man. The Arian and the Russellite wants only an objective relationship with God. The Arian is utilized by Satan to rebell against God imparting His life into man.

    This is religious designed not to bring God and man together but to keep them apart. The Devil may not be able to keep people from believing in God. Though he does sometime. Yet if he cannot, at least he will work to keep man from receiving God into them.

    He does this by emphasizing that Christ is not God.
    He does this by emphasizing that the Spirit is not a Person.
    He does this by stressing only an objective God, far away which does not impart His life into man.

    This is the pseudo Islamization of the Christian faith carried out by Arius and Russell and sad to say by Robbie.

    The goal - unwittingly or knowingly, the goal is to keep God and people separated. Under the guise of respectful worship of God alone the goal, knowingly or unwittingly, is to stop the dispensing of God as Spirit into man that God may live in man and man may live in God.

    Along with this rebellion is also the lack of assurance of salvation. This unbelief in the assurance of salvation is disquised as humility. They consider that it is proud to know that one is saved. But He who has the Son of God has the life of God. And to have the life of God is to have the eternal life.
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    03 Jun '09 22:55
    If you reader, listen to this Russellite teaching of Robbie's you will likely not receive Christ into your heart. And you would not be born of God.

    The seeds of this teaching of Arius and Russell will discourage you from speaking to Christ. It may even discourage you from praying to the Father for Christ to save you.

    The seeds of rebellion will subtly enfluence you to be satisfied only knowing some OBJECTIVE information about God the Creator. In the end you will not be able to really say that you are sure that your sins are forgiven or that Jesus lives in you.

    Paul wrote the Christians at Corinth - "Test yourselves whether you are in the faith, prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?" (2 Cor. 13:5)

    Everything hinges on the Christ imparted into you. Everything hinges on Christ coming to live in you. Everything hinges on you receiving Jesus Christ on the inside of your being by invitation.

    The result of Arius's rebellion against the New Testament will be to fill your heart with misgiving about opening up to receive Jesus that you can say "I have tested myself and I know that Jesus Christ is IN me."

    You MUST be born again. Ask Robbie about being born again. You will see that he doesn't understand such a thing. He understands the Old Testament God who is out there objectively as the Creator. He does not experience that incarnated God in Christ who died and rose and became a "life giving Spirit" that He may be Christ in you.

    With such as these there can be no assurance. What they have to teach people is the very same lack of assurance that they themselves suffer.
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    04 Jun '09 22:306 edits
    Originally posted by jaywill
    If you reader, listen to this Russellite teaching of Robbie's you will likely not receive Christ into your heart. And you would not be born of God.

    The seeds of this teaching of Arius and Russell will discourage you from speaking to Christ. It may even discourage you from praying to the Father for Christ to save you.

    The seeds of rebellion will subtl ey have to teach people is the very same lack of assurance that they themselves suffer.
    Gentle reader, let us take a moment for reflection,

    Truth is generally the best vindication against slander. - Abraham Lincoln,

    therefore let us proceed to examine the second text, that has been proffered, to persuade us of the divinity of the Christ. That of course being, Revelation 5:12,13, as quoted from above.

    "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honour and glory and blessing... To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honour and glory and dominion forever and ever" (Rev. 5:12-13).

    you will of course notice that there are two entities here, the one who sits on the throne, and the Lamb. where is the third part of the triune God, the Holy spirit, who can tell, but that is not our objective, for if we can clearly identify these two entities, it will generally help us to see the distinction between the two.

    firstly the one identified on the throne is none other than the Almighty himself, how do we know this? the immediate context helps us, cast your mind back a few verses, we can state quite clearly, that the one on the throne is the Almighty himself,

    "Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come."Revelation 4:8

    thus is is quite easy to see, that the one who resides on the throne, is the Almighty himself. This word, almighty, is from a Hebrew word, el shaddaih, which is used with reference to God alone, never the Christ, the Greek equivalent being, pantokrator, thus we are able to determine from the original languages that the Bible writers meant us to make a clear distinction between the two.

    the question is, is it feasible to give glory to God and to the Christ, and the answer is yes, entirely, doe this make them co-equal as the trinitarians would have us believe, not for the Christ himself taught something entirely different, even after his resurrection to heaven. Please note what the scripture states with regard to the Christ,

    "He humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake. For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name." Philipians - 2:8, 9.

    thus for his faithfulness and loyalty, Jesus was resurrected, not as a human, but as “a life-giving spirit,” and to a superior position that any other of Gods creatures.

    notice that Christ Jesus on every occasion, whether by action or deed glorified the father,

    And instantly he rose up before them, picked up what he used to lie on and went off to his home, glorifying God. Then an ecstasy seized one and all, and they began to glorify God, and they became filled with fear, saying: “We have seen strange things today!” Luke 5:25,26

    thus we can see, that although the miracle was done so that an individual was brought relief, it had the immediate affect that turned the recipients and those who witnessed it attention towards God, and they were moved to glorify him.

    Jesus answered: “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who you say is your God;  and yet you have not known him. But I know him. And if I said I do not know him I should be like you, a liar. But I do know him and am observing his word." John 8:54-55.

    What was it the Christ was interested in glorifying? yes that is correct, his fathers name.

    Father, save me out of this hour. Nevertheless, this is why I have come to this hour.  Father, glorify your name.” Therefore a voice came out of heaven: “I both glorified it and will glorify it again.” What was the name of his Father? Psalm 83:18!

    of interest to this is the lords prayer,

    "This, then, is how you should pray:
    " 'Our Father in heaven,
    hallowed be your name,", NIV

    you will of course notice that Christ did not say, hallowed be my name, but hallowed be the fathers name, Pslam 83:18. thus it can clearly be seen that Christ was not interested in self glorification, but was interested in making the fathers name known and in glorifying it. one may wonder why the trinitarians have deviated from this clear and unambiguous standard set by the Christ himself? Are they unaware of the divine name? hardly, although in some instances, as in the case of the NIV version of the Bible, it has been blasphemously removed, something for which not one of them had authority to do.

    I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world." - John 17:6, by removing it from the sacred text, i don't think so!

    in the next thrilling episode, we shall look at just why Christ is glorified in connection with God, but in no way does he ever consider himself to be equal with God and how the trinitarians, by being unable to distinguish between the father and the son, the creator and the created, commit a great folly and act of idolatrous creature worship, which Christ himself would have none of , but until then gentle reader, have peace 🙂
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