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Originally posted by robbie carrobieno one is denying that Christ indeed had a pre-eminent position, but this does not make him Almighty God, wisdom personified, yes, only-begotten Son, yes, the Word, yes, Chief Agent of life, yes, the way, the truth and the life, yes, the Messiah, yes, courageous liberator, yes, teacher, yes, wonderful counsellor, mighty god, eternal father prince of peace, yes, Almighty God, NO NEVER IS THIS TERM EVER APPLIED TO JESUS CHRIST...
102. Luke 2:23
(as it is written in the Law of the Lord, "Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord" ),
103. Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
104. Colossians 1:15
[ The Supremacy of in their power to substantiate their belief, its great fun and very much to be recommended.
Robbie, the Bible teaches us to respond to Jesus Christ as we would to God, by giving him the honors that are due God. We are to honor, glorify, worship, pray to, sing to and about, believe in, fear or reverence, religiously serve, love and obey Jesus as we would God. Honoring Jesus in these ways would be odd - even blasphemous - if he were merely a creature created by God. No matter how great he may be, even if he were the first created thing, it would be wrong to honor Jesus as God if he were fundamentally and in essence no more than a creature like us. Yet, this is precisely what you are proposing we do.
God said, "I am the LORD your God... You shall have no other gods before me" (Ex. 20:2-3). Even Christ said, "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve" (Mat. 4:10). How do we reconcile God's commands concerning himself, e.g., "you shall have no other gods before me," with the other commands concerning Christ, that we honor, glorify, worship, pray to, sing to and about, believe in, fear or reverence, religiously serve, love and obey him as we would God?
In other words, how do you justify honoring a created being as God?
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou avoided the question, Robbie. Why is it so difficult for you to admit that you are wrong? Eat your hat on this one. Firstborn in certain contexts can mean "pre-eminent" rather than literally "born first".
now you are asking me to substantiate your ludicrous claims, I have already stated that Christ is or has a pre-eminent position, but it hardly makes him Almighty God, does it, it means that he is the first born of all creation and holds or is destined to hold a pre-eminent position. what is it with you people that you find this so hard to understand ...[text shortened]... has, jaywill, i salute you and go to bed, till we meet again, pistols at dawn, for the honour 🙂
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Originally posted by epiphinehasthe Bible teaches that Jesus Christ, even after his subsequent resurrection is always subject to God, what is it about this that you do not understand? and we do not justify worshipping created being as God, that's your forte 🙂
no one is denying that Christ indeed had a pre-eminent position, but this does not make him Almighty God, wisdom personified, yes, only-begotten Son, yes, the Word, yes, Chief Agent of life, yes, the way, the truth and the life, yes, the Messiah, yes, courageous liberator, yes, teacher, yes, wonderful counsellor, mighty god, eternal father prince of p m as we would God?
In other words, how do you justify honoring a created being as God?[/b]
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Originally posted by Rajk999=====================================
Get it through your thick skull Robbie; its either you accept what Jaywill says or you are not a Christian and you are not saved.
Get it through your thick skull Robbie; its either you accept what Jaywill says or you are not a Christian and you are not saved.
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Rajk999,
Perhaps you should get it through your thick sarcasm that it was Robbie who admitted that he did not have the assurance that he was saved.
I asked him if he had the assurance of being with Christ if, God forbid, the building were to collapse around him and he was to die. (Which thing we certainly do not wish happens).
Rajk999, it was Robbie who said he was not assured of his salvation. It was not me who took the lead to point it out. I only asked him. He took the lead to admit he was unsure.
So please do not sarcastically twist the facts.
Originally posted by epiphinehasit is not difficult for me to admit that i am wrong, but it is generally always the case with you trinitarians, that rather than actually look at what the general consensus of scripture is, you will doggedly cling to your perceptions and interpretations in an effort to substantiate your wild claims. you come to the scriptures with a pre conception, and determined to prove that it is there, will actually try every manner at your disposal to substantiate it, this lacks humility and is clearly wrong, for you are not letting the scriptures speak for themselves.
You avoided the question, Robbie. Why is it so difficult for you to admit that you are wrong? Eat your hat on this one. Firstborn in certain contexts can mean "pre-eminent" rather than literally "born first".
look at you, my goodness, you have went from Ephraim to being given the rights of firstborn, even though he was not actually born first, as were others and slyly and underhandedly tried to assert that this has any bearing whatsoever to the Christ being pre-eminent in position rather than the BEGINNING of Gods creation, its despicable, truly despicable!
in the context of the psalms, there is a reference which has the two in the same context, first-born and a position of eminence, look how you grasped it as if it was incontrovertible proof, that by their mere juxtaposition, it was undeniable proof that collossians 1:15 should be translated as pre-eminent, and you wonder why we howl with laughter.
Christ had a beginning, get over it my friend, i mean it, its undeniable and clearly stated.
Originally posted by jaywillhes only messing around Jaywill, relax, now can you tell me that i am not saved? can you tell me if i am saved? if i am not, what am i not saved from, if i am saved, what am i saved from?
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Get it through your thick skull Robbie; its either you accept what Jaywill says or you are not a Christian and you are not saved.
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Rajk999,
Perhaps you should get it through your thick sarcasm that it was Robbie who admitted that he did not have the assurance that ...[text shortened]... m. He took the lead to admit he was unsure.
So please do not sarcastically twist the facts.[/b]
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieI have read First Corinthians 15.
the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ, even after his subsequent resurrection is always subject to God, what is it about this that you do not understand?
You bring out new points. You do not successfully address certain questions put to you.
You skip them with silence and continue on a "Business as Usual" approach. Some like Rajk999 may be impressed.
Some others of us see your evasions. I don't feel to go on to many new points with you, personally, until you attempt to answer previous ones.
You are still silent on Proverbs 8:22 and God supposedly creating the Wisdom of God.
Rather as long as God was the Word and the Wisdom of God were. Your polytheism in John 1:1 and Proverbs 8:22 falls.
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieTwo days ago you indicated that you did not have the assurance of your etermal redemption. You implied that this was to be humble. Humility, for you, will manifest itself as one not being sure of his possession of eternal life.
hes only messing around Jaywill, relax, now can you tell me that i am not saved? can you tell me if i am saved? if i am not, what am i not saved from, if i am saved, what am i saved from?
But John wrote "that the you may KNOW that you have eternal life."
Therefore I feared that you do not realize that Jesus Christ has come into your innermost being.
So, first off, we all need to be saved from being deviod of the Spirit of Christ coming into our human spirit.
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
In regeneration the Holy Spirit comes into the comatose and deadened human spirit, to awaken it, to regenerate it. And He comes to become joined to our spirit so that the human spirit and the Divine Holy Spirit mingle to become "one spirit".
This union is a rebirth of the damaged and comatose human spirit which since Adam's fall has been in a deadened state.
If you wish to examine this more you should go to www.regenerated.net
To not be regenerated is to not be with the life of God, still "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18)
Furthermore, you need to be saved from not being forgiven by Jehovah. Romans says "the spirit is life BECAUSE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Rom. 8:10 my emphasis).
The born again rebirth of the comatose human spirit occurs when one is justified by believing and accepting Christ. Because of the imputed righteousness to the believer, his spirit is made life.
That is not the bios life physical body. That is not the psuche life of the soul. That is the zoe divine life of God. He imparts Himself into the forgiven sinner making divine life come into his being. And the human spirit is then "life because of righteousness"
If I were you and I was unsure of my salvation I would pray "Lord Jesus, I ask you to make my spirit life because of righteousness. Lord Jesus I receive you as my only righteousness, my only merit upon which I stand before God. Lord Jesus, your blood cleanses me from every sin which I now confess. I am a hopeless sinful person Lord. But I receive you into my spirit that you may give life to me, and that according to your word, my spirit may be eternal life because of righteousness. Thankyou Lord Jesus. Thank you Father. "
This is just a sample not to be taken rigidly. This is a sample of a good prayer that one's spirit may be made life because of Christ as righteousness.
Originally posted by jaywilli have addressed each and every issue that you idolaters have addressed, Raj has his own mind and his own thoughts, and i have told you before, i do not post here to 'impress', anyone, i am interested in the truth of the matter, and what is more Jaywill, i have gone with the flow and ebb of this discussion, when you are unable to address certain point, as in why is Christ is never referred to as The Almighty, how is it possible for God to die, why has no one seen God at any time, yet many saw the Christ, why does revelation clearly state that Christ had a beginning, where was the third element of your trinity when Steven saw the Christ seated next to God, was he on holiday? why did the coptic writers make a distinction between God and a god, why is it quite clearly a case of the genealogy and not pre-eminence as in the Coptic text of collosians 1:15, why is the Christ always subject to God, even after his resurrection? Why is it that the Christ always emphasised and gave glory to the father? why were other moved to give glory to the father when they witnessed a miracle? did i press you for answers, whinging on about your inability to answer, no i did not, for there were more pressing matters at hand and you needed to respond People in glass houses Jaywill, should not play with slingshots.
I have read First Corinthianss 15.
You bring out new points. You do not successfully address certain questions put to you.
You skip them with silence and continue on a "Business as Usual" approach. Some like Rajk999 may be impressed.
Some others of us see your evasions. I don't feel to go on to many new points with you, personally, until you ...[text shortened]... was the Word and the Wisdom of God were. Your polytheism in John 1:1 and Proverbs 8:22 falls.
if this episode will come between you and i Jaywill, like a sword, then i am willing to drop it, for the sake of peace, you may believe your trinity, i cannot, but never the less, my goodness, there must be some things that we can agree upon.
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Originally posted by robbie carrobie===========================
it is not difficult for me to admit that i am wrong, but it is generally always the case with you trinitarians, that rather than actually look at what the general consensus of scripture is, you will doggedly cling to your perceptions and interpretations in an effort to substantiate your wild claims. you come to the scriptures with a pre conception, ...[text shortened]...
Christ had a beginning, get over it my friend, i mean it, its undeniable and clearly stated.
Christ had a beginning, get over it my friend, i mean it, its undeniable and clearly stated.
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Why then does the writer of Hebrews emphasize that Christ is without beginning of days (Hebrews 7:3)?
Regardless of whether one wants to call himself trinitarian or not, a Christian should receive Christ into their heart.
If some teaching is causing you to hesitate to do that you need to put a huge question mark on that teaching.
Is something causing you to be reluctant to asking Jesus Christ to come into your heart that you may be saved ? Do you feel that you do not need that as long as you believe Jehovah God is the Almighty Creator ?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWhich one of these points would you like me to address again ?
i have addressed each and every issue that you idolaters have addressed, Raj has his own mind and his own thoughts, and i have told you before, i do not post here to 'impress', anyone, i am interested in the truth of the matter, and what is more Jaywill, i have gone with the flow and ebb of this discussion, when you are unable to address certain poin ...[text shortened]... , i cannot, but never the less, my goodness, there must be some things that we can agree upon.
Pick your favorite and I'll go through a reply again.