Life from a petri-dish

I did some thinking. See what you think of this.

The problem with life is that it can't possibly have popped up from nowhere in an instant unless there is some intelligence behind it all; supposedly this God thingie. As any atheist would elliminate the possibility of a God, that statement just won't cut it. Theists comfortably relies on the belief that in fact there is a God, (s)he was always there and there's no need to question it.

Well, let's just do that anyways. I find it hard to believe that something can come out of nothing, myself (even a God thingie). That just doesn't make any sense. Still, it would seem that I exist. I think all my friends and family exist. And I have no reason to believe that you people don't exist. So, how did it all begin?

The evolutionary concept is easy enough to grasp. Take a few ingredients and poor them into a universe and let them interact a few billion years and they will have taken another form. To us, the forms that we have taken seems incredible. Too incredible to have been randomly assembled. However, if we suppose that we could look at this whole universe from an outside perspective, perhaps all we really see is a jumble of no importance whatsoever. Then, it would seem we are only intelligent as far as our own environment goes. (Have a strange feeling I've already said something like this before.) We are suited to this environment, simply because we're part of it. Our lifes, our intelligence, our cultures, our significance has absolutely no impact on things at large. If that's the case, then there is nothing about life that needs to be explained in terms of creation and Godlike intervention. We are what we are now, and in a few million years the jumble will be a completely different thingie.

So, if we can understand this. That we are not special in any way other than to ourselves. And that there need not be a creator behind everything for us to think we are special in the universe. Then we can ask the ultimate question. The one which we can't possibly answer. From where does all these ingredients come?

I have a suggestion, an hypothesis, if you will. Matter is made out of smaller components. Every piece of matter, no matter how much we divide it, will always consist of yet smaller components of matter. We call them molecules, atoms, electron and protons and so on, but the division must be infinite. The same goes for matter in the other direction. solar systems, galaxies, universes and yet unnamed entities for infinity. Infinity, as far as reality goes is an impossibility. Nothing can actually be infinite. That concept only works in our brains and therefore in mathematics. Or so I believe.

Another thing worth noting here is that we only perceive what our senses allow us to perceive. It's a fact that we don't always interpret the information we receive correctly. So, what I see, hear, smell, taste or feel could be quite different from what's really there. Our reality, thus, is only the figment of how we interpret reality. It's not necessarily the way things are.

Now, try and imagine the following. We don't exist as individuals in a universe with a creator and a purpose. We exist as one mind in a state that has no matter of any kind. That's why it's so hard to understand from where all this has sprung. Because it simply hasn't. We don't exist. Life is not real. It's all just something we think we can perceive, when in fact, we don't. I would attempt to proove this by ending my own life. If indeed there was a life, I will not experience anything. However, if there was no life to begin with. How can I take it in the first place?

(Alas, I'm too much of a chicken to actually do that. What if there really is a world here and I leave prematurely. Seems a shame to rob the world of such a refined intellect.) 😀

Originally posted by stocken
I did some thinking. See what you think of this.

The problem with life is that it can't possibly have popped up from nowhere in an instant unless there is some intelligence behind it all; supposedly this God thingie. As any atheist would elliminate the possibility of a God, that statement just won't cut it. Theists comfortably relies on the belief that in fact there is a God, (s)he was always there and there's no need to question it.

Thats settled then. You say its impossible and we all might just as well pack up our test-tubes and go home. Thanks. It appears I've been wasting my life in the lab. There is no real need to investigate any natural phenomena because, obviously, god done it all.

FFS

Originally posted by stocken
I did some thinking. See what you think of this.

The problem with life is that it can't possibly have popped up from nowhere in an instant unless there is some intelligence behind it all; supposedly this God thingie. As any atheist would elliminate the possibility of a God, that statement just won't cut it. Theists comfortably relies on the belief that in ...[text shortened]... ematurely. Seems a shame to rob the world of such a refined intellect.) 😀

Well, one would be tempted to say that space is infinite. Unless there is a wall at the end or summat? (Okay I know it's actually circular, but it's much the same thing)

Originally posted by aardvarkhome
Thats settled then. You say its impossible and we all might just as well pack up our test-tubes and go home. Thanks. It appears I've been wasting my life in the lab. There is no real need to investigate any natural phenomena because, obviously, god done it all.

FFS

Actually, I'm not saying "God done it all". Perhaps I was a little too far out there for you to follow. My apologies for wasting your time.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Well, one would be tempted to say that space is infinite. Unless there is a wall at the end or summat? (Okay I know it's actually circular, but it's much the same thing)

You know it's circular? How?

But of course, circular would explain infinity as we know it. But then, what's beyond the circle? I think the only logical explanation (at this time, that I can think of) is that nothing really exists, so there's no infinity simply because it's not needed (in any other way than our minds allow).

Yea, I know, not exactly doctor's degree material, but I'm working on it. In fifty or so years I might realize that it was all a waste of time, but then I'll just go senile for a few years before I drop, and it's no big deal. Life's here. Enjoy it people, whether it's for real or not. That's my motto. 🙂

Originally posted by stocken
You know it's circular? How?

But of course, circular would explain infinity as we know it. But then, what's beyond the circle? I think the only logical explanation (at this time, that I can think of) is that nothing really exists, so there's no infinity simply because it's not needed (in any other way than our minds allow).

Yea, I know, not exactly doc ...[text shortened]... deal. Life's here. Enjoy it people, whether it's for real or not. That's my motto. 🙂

No no, don't denigrate yourself (I'm liking that word today). It's all good. In a doctoral course you have time to think of all these things... that's important. time.

Anyhoo, circular universe is a relativity thing - i think. I've had a couple of beers - can't remember properly. Look it up please!

Originally posted by scottishinnz
No no, don't denigrate yourself (I'm liking that word today). It's all good. In a doctoral course you have time to think of all these things... that's important. time.

Anyhoo, circular universe is a relativity thing - i think. I've had a couple of beers - can't remember properly. Look it up please!

Well, I assume when you say circular, you are talking about a sphere. And we are actually unsure of the geometry of the universe. It obvioulsy depends of curvature of space-time, which is where Einstein comes in here. He calculated the radius of his model universe to be about 1e10 lt. yrs. Using c/sqrt(4pi*G*p) This was before Hubble showed that the Universe was expanding. With that knowledge, we now know that the solution to the Field Equation Einstein used for this model universe cannot possibly be the correct one. So Einstein thought the Universe would be a sphere, but now we don't know. It depends on the value of the Cosmological Density Parameter, Omege which is currently unknown. If Omega is equal to 1, the universe will be a flat, infinite plane(no net curvature), if it is greater than 1, the universe will collapse in on itself and be a sphere(positive curvature); and if Omega is less that 1, the universe will eventually fly apart and the shape will be analogous to a saddle shaped (negative curvature). I also read somewhere that a sphere could just as likely be a torus and we would never be able to tell.

Originally posted by stocken
I did some thinking. See what you think of this.

The problem with life is that it can't possibly have popped up from nowhere in an instant unless there is some intelligence behind it all; supposedly this God thingie. As any atheist would elliminate the possibility of a God, that statement just won't cut it. Theists comfortably relies on the belief that in ...[text shortened]... ematurely. Seems a shame to rob the world of such a refined intellect.) 😀

Something only has to come out of nothing once with Big Bang theory and abiogenesis, if you believe in God he had to do it over and over....
Matter can be created from energy by E=mc^2, so we just need to figure where the starting energy of the universe came from, and no intelligence is required, everything from there on can be randomly assembled. Some people think this is unlikely, but it really isn't, miracles seem far less likely.

I think we are incredibly, but not tremendously more so than a bacterium is incredible. And it isn't hard to imagine them coming about, we have even seen aminio acids formed in the remnants of supernovae explosions with no life needed, things randomly react quite well given enough time.

We know that matter is made out of quarks, but I see know reason why it should need to be divisible anywhere beyond that. Why can't matter just be made out of energy? The whole wave-particle duality thing seems much more reasonable to me, and no offense but I will take the accepted opinion of thousands of physicists over you in these matters. And their ideas make more sense anyway. Energy is still divisible though, so I am not totally disagreeing.

And if you have discovered a way for mathematics not to need any infinities at all, I'm sure millions will love you for it and you will go down as the greatest mind in mathematics of the millenium.

I find it amazing how many reasonably intelligent people just arbitrarily decide that infinity must not exist because they don't like the idea. Take some math and you'll see that we need it.

Originally posted by UmbrageOfSnow
Something only has to come out of nothing once with Big Bang theory and abiogenesis, if you believe in God he had to do it over and over....
Matter can be created from energy by E=mc^2, so we just need to figure where the starting energy of the universe came from, and no intelligence is required, everything from there on can be randomly assembled. S ...[text shortened]... ot exist because they don't like the idea. Take some math and you'll see that we need it.

Good post, both to stocken's and mine.

I need to sober up!

Originally posted by UmbrageOfSnow
Something only has to come out of nothing once with Big Bang theory and abiogenesis, if you believe in God he had to do it over and over....
Matter can be created from energy by E=mc^2, so we just need to figure where the starting energy of the universe came from, and no intelligence is required, everything from there on can be randomly assembled. S ...[text shortened]... ot exist because they don't like the idea. Take some math and you'll see that we need it.

Energy is made of something as well. If you have something then that something must be made of something. Otherwise it's not there. So energy, the original Big Bang, the material used by God, God himself - whatever your take on the matter is, you must explain how matter (or energy) can come about if there was nothing to begin with.

Yes, if you have something and mix the soup, the result can be something new (to us). But it's still made up of that same base material. It simply has other qualities as a whole.

No, I still think it's all an illusion that eludes us. There is no matter or anti-matter. It's just a nothing and within that nothing (oops, a paradox) our minds exist. (Like I said, it's not doctor's degree material.)

Enjoy life! 🙂

Originally posted by stocken
So energy, the original Big Bang, the material used by God, God himself - whatever your take on the matter is, you must explain how matter (or energy) can come about if there was nothing to begin with.

Look up the Higgs boson, see what you think (I think your math is better than mine).

Originally posted by twhitehead
So you believe that God is deciphering DNA in every living Cell all the time and without him life comes to a stop ? Interesting.

I repeat DNA is not equal to life nor is it a requirement for life. Of course the definition of the word life is debatable, but nevertheless there are very simple things like Viruses and structures within the cell which repro nse". But intuitive logic depends on the individual and varies widely according to experience.

I have wasted untold hours trying to explain how epigenetics can work in a LaMarckian fashion to increase complexity. Good Luck in your endeavor to enlighten these folks.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Look up the Higgs boson, see what you think (I think your math is better than mine).

I'm not sure if he isn't applying Attouch-Wets topology of infinite dimensions to matter instead of the spacial manifolds that contain it.

Originally posted by twhitehead
[b]As I pointed out in another thread, viruses need a host to reproduce, so you are still stuck.
The nevertheless reproduce and evolve. Are they alive ?

I never asserted that God is deciphering DNA, a shameless strawman and red herring on your part. The cell itself deciphers the DNA, hence you need an already functioning cell.

You state ...[text shortened]... more complex?[/b]

I see the conclusive proof all around me in the plants and animals I see.[/b]

One thing a lot of people don't consider when they use the term
'Intelligent design' is this: the very nature of dna causes it to have
computational ability and this by itself can explain evolution.
You don't need an external intelligent designer, DNA is
ALREADY intelligent, enough to recognize stresses on its cells, from
heat or cold or lack of food or poor defensive strategies, the DNA
itself gets the message and starts long term (from the DNA's
viewpoint) changes to try to make the next generation more able
to resist whatever stress the previous one got.
The intelligence is internal.

Originally posted by frogstomp
I have wasted untold hours trying to explain how epigenetics can work in a LaMarckian fashion to increase complexity. Good Luck in your endeavor to enlighten these folks.

The way I handle it is to answer each common creationist idea or comment once in depth and put that thread on my Favorites. Then I can copy paste my answer when the same idea comes up again.