Many words, concepts, and ideas in the Holy Bible cannot be solved by human logic and reasoning, so please folks...stop trying to do so. The Bible is part history, and part spiritual guide, written by many people over many centuries. This, by it's very nature leads to many misunderstandings. The best advise I can give when trying to understand some parts of the Bible is to consult a Bible teacher, or your local Christian minister. Be mindful however, that they won't have all the answers either. In order to be a Christian you simply have to take some things on faith. An excellent example of this is the words Jesus spoke to Thomas following the resurrection. Thomas doubted the man standing before him was in fact the resurrected Jesus, and would not believe unless he saw the marks on Jesus' hands and feet. Upon showing him the marks Jesus said: "You see, and yet believe. Blessed are those who do not see, and yet believe."😏
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Originally posted by bill718So if logic does not apply to the Bible, how can you possibly interpret it? Surely any interpretation is equally valid.
Many words, concepts, and ideas in the Holy Bible cannot be solved by human logic and reasoning, so please folks...stop trying to do so. The Bible is part history, and part spiritual guide, written by many people over many centuries. This, by it's very nature leads to many misunderstandings. The best advise I can give when trying to understand some parts of ...[text shortened]... esus said: "You see, and yet believe. Blessed are those who do not see, and yet believe."😏
Originally posted by Conrau KLogic has nothing to do with the interpretation of the bible.
So if logic does not apply to the Bible, how can you possibly interpret it? Surely any interpretation is equally valid.
Example: Somewhere in the bible you shouldn't kill, but elsewhere heroes kill.
Another example: Somewhere hatered is rewarded, elsewhere loveing is rewarded.
If this is logic, then you can behave anyway you like, there are alwas places in the bible that back you up.
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Originally posted by FabianFnasThat might only show that the Bible is internally inconsistent. It does not show that the logic does not apply. And logic is not something that you can turn off.
Logic has nothing to do with the interpretation of the bible.
Example: Somewhere in the bible you shouldn't kill, but elsewhere heroes kill.
Another example: Somewhere hatered is rewarded, elsewhere loveing is rewarded.
If this is logic, then you can behave anyway you like, there are alwas places in the bible that back you up.
Originally posted by Conrau KThat's right. If the bible as a whole is not consistent, it's not logic. You cannot ever think that one part is true when another part, equally true, is contradicting eachother. Then the belivers of the bible has turned off the logic.
That might only show that the Bible is internally inconsistent. It does not show that the logic does not apply. And logic is not something that you can turn off.
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Originally posted by FabianFnasI think you are deeply confused about the nature of logic. A contradiction only exists in a well-defined logic.
That's right. If the bible as a whole is not consistent, it's not logic. You cannot ever think that one part is true when another part, equally true, is contradicting eachother. Then the belivers of the bible has turned off the logic.
Originally posted by Conrau KThere are contradictions in the bible too.
I think you are deeply confused about the nature of logic. A contradiction only exists in a well-defined logic.
It's when people say that everything in the bible is true I get confused. The bible *is* confusing.
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Originally posted by FabianFnasYes, but you can only say that there is a contradiction given a robust logical definition. If you say logic does not apply to the Bible, you cannot say it is contradictory. You can't really say anything about it.
There are contradictions in the bible too.
It's when people say that everything in the bible is true I get confused. The bible *is* confusing.
Originally posted by Conrau KNow we're off topic. This is a debate about how contradiction can exist in something that is illogical. This is not my line of arguing.
Yes, but you can only say that there is a contradiction given a robust logical definition. If you say logic does not apply to the Bible, you cannot say it is contradictory. You can't really say anything about it.
I just say that the bible is illogical.
Or I say there are contradictions in the bible.
In either way I say that the bible is confusing. Building a religion aout of something this confusing is stupid. Explaining the bible as it would be all true is nonsensical.
The Bible does not stand alone. It is not a matter of "Here's the Bible. Here's your logic. Good luck."
Behind the Bible is the living God. We need the help of the living God to know the Bible well. And we need the Bible to know the living God well.
I am sorry. I know that is circular. I know that that is "not fair" in some sense. But that's just the way it is.
And I would add another matter to make it a triangle. We need not only the Bible and not only the living God. But we also need the people of God, particularly the apostles and prophets.
So you really have a triangle: The Bible, the living God, and the apostles of God. These three coordinate together to help mankind know the word of God.
Now before some of you complain that this is not fair, take a moment are consider physics.
The way you know TIME is through MOTION through SPACE.
The way you know MOTION is through TIME and SPACE.
The way you know SPACE is through MOTION and TIME.
These three things are mutually dependent upon each other. To know one you have to know the other two.
I think it may be similar with the Bible, the living God, the apostles of God. They just are bound inextricably together. That's just the way it is.
Originally posted by bill718Seems to me that the reason the Bible resists logic and reasoning is simply because the Bible is not coherent. As you said, it was written by many authors over many years that had markedly differing conceptions of God. It does little good to consult a Bible teacher or Christian minister who believes that the inconsistencies, discrepancies and outright contradictions are reconcilable. From my experience, they resort to ignoring some passages in favor of others, changing the very meaning of passages, etc. in order to achieve a "reconciliation". Or they simply repeat their mantra: "The ways of God are impossible for mere humans to understand" or some other variation of this theme.
Many words, concepts, and ideas in the Holy Bible cannot be solved by human logic and reasoning, so please folks...stop trying to do so. The Bible is part history, and part spiritual guide, written by many people over many centuries. This, by it's very nature leads to many misunderstandings. The best advise I can give when trying to understand some parts of esus said: "You see, and yet believe. Blessed are those who do not see, and yet believe."😏
What's interesting is that, by and large, the teachings of Jesus are congruous. If instead of starting with the assumption that the Bible is the "inerrant word of God", they started with the assumption that Jesus spoke the truth, they would have a much more coherent conception of God. The parts of the Bible that are not consistent with the teachings of Jesus should be dismissed. But then, they'd have to actually take Jesus as their Lord instead of a collection of writings cobbled together by various men over various ages. This mistake is strikingly similar to the same as that made by the Scribes and Pharisees. Jesus commanded his followers to follow HIS word, i.e., teachings, not the word of the Bible.