1. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    29 May '14 13:151 edit
    Is it logical?
  2. SubscriberSuzianne
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    29 May '14 13:41
    Logic is of the mind, whereas spiritual is often of the heart.
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    29 May '14 14:01
    The way I understand it, if you want to "get" god, you have to stop using logic. I don't understand why. Why wouldn't god use logic to reach us? Why would he not use logic to combat evil? What is so bad about logic?
  4. SubscriberSuzianne
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    29 May '14 14:39
    Originally posted by Great King Rat
    The way I understand it, if you want to "get" god, you have to stop using logic. I don't understand why. Why wouldn't god use logic to reach us? Why would he not use logic to combat evil? What is so bad about logic?
    Logic is sterile. It usually suffers through contact with humans. Humans have heart, emotion. There is much that we can understand that pure logic cannot.
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    29 May '14 15:161 edit
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Logic is sterile. It usually suffers through contact with humans. Humans have heart, emotion. There is much that we can understand that pure logic cannot.
    This makes no sense. Logic is not a being. By saying "We can understand things that logic cannot" you are equating humans with logic, effectively trying to turn logic into some kind of being. It is not. It is, I would say, a tool that is present in our brains that is a kind of offspring from intuition. Logic has brought us a lot. With it we can cure diseases, land on the moon, decide whether or not an abortion might be more humane than letting the child be born. Logic is partly the reason why you are now using a computer.

    Maybe you mean something like "There is much that we cannot understand by using logic, but when we use emotions it all makes perfect sense." (Again, because you are being so vague you force me to kind of read your mind. You could remedy this by being more clear).

    If that is what you mean, then I would like you to give some examples.

    Do you think there may have been a more logical way for god to reach us? More logical then say, sending his son - who is also himself - to earth, let him grow up, then let him die, then let him resurrect, then let his life story be told in a book which then gets passed on and altered through the centuries?
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    29 May '14 15:36
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Is it logical?
    Yes logic is supreme. It makes a mockery of merely emotive arguments every time.
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    29 May '14 15:45
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Logic is sterile. It usually suffers through contact with humans. Humans have heart, emotion. There is much that we can understand that pure logic cannot.
    Rejecting logic in certain instances is a topic that might be worthy of a thread. I don't think the non-theists here would be nearly as frustrated with the theists here if they took the position you are advocating. The problem is that many theists on this forum routinely demonstrate a lack of understanding of logic. It is evident in almost every thread, and is particularly noticeable in wolfgang59's "If god then ..." thread, which had an easy logical refutation for theists (they just needed to reject the premise: 1. Everything that exists has a cause), but instead turned into a 14+ page demonstration of the inability of several theists to comprehend basic logic.
  8. SubscriberSuzianne
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    29 May '14 15:461 edit
    Originally posted by Great King Rat
    This makes no sense. Logic is not a being. By saying "We can understand things that logic cannot" you are equating humans with logic, effectively trying to turn logic into some kind of being. It is not. It is, I would say, a tool that is present in our brains that is a kind of offspring from intuition. Logic has brought us a lot. With it we can cure d ...[text shortened]... et his life story be told in a book which then gets passed on and altered through the centuries?
    Semantics. You use semantics to twist what I say. Sorry, not playing that game. Even beyond twisting, you use it to invalidate everything I could say.

    Is it too much to expect just enough respect to let my words stand on their own without all the semantic twisting and assuming? Afraid you can't refute what I say without doing so?
  9. SubscriberSuzianne
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    29 May '14 15:48
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Yes logic is supreme. It makes a mockery of merely emotive arguments every time.
    And yet you wonder why I say almost everything you write is wrong.
  10. SubscriberSuzianne
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    29 May '14 15:54
    Originally posted by PatNovak
    Rejecting logic in certain instances is a topic that might be worthy of a thread. I don't think the non-theists here would be nearly as frustrated with the theists here if they took the position you are advocating. The problem is that many theists on this forum routinely demonstrate a lack of understanding of logic. It is evident in almost every thread, and ...[text shortened]... ned into a 14+ page demonstration of the inability of several theists to comprehend basic logic.
    Well, the idea among theists is that in regards to theology, faith trumps logic. Logic has its place, to be sure, but it can't get its feet under itself, so to speak, when discussing theology. I'm no logic master, for sure, but I do not need to be to have faith in God.

    If one needs logic so much that one must suckle at the teat of logic, to the exception of all else, then I'm afraid I can't explain faith to that one. It must be felt, it must be experienced, to be "known".
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    29 May '14 16:01
    Logic is what emotion uses to justify itself.
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    29 May '14 16:03
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Semantics. You use semantics to twist what I say. Sorry, not playing that game.

    Is it too much to expect just enough respect to let my words stand on their own without all the semantic twisting and assuming? Afraid you can't refute what I say without doing so?
    Typical Suzianne response. I spend a very short time pointing out how you treat the word "logic" wrongly, while the largest part (by far) of my post I try and define what I think "logic" is, ask you to give examples where logic fails and ask you if god could've been more logical and yet you hide behind that very tiny part at the start of my post.

    You could of course be a sport and tell me if what i think you meant is correct, but pride might get in the way of that.
    You could of course give some examples of where logic stops us from understanding things, but I doubt you can.
    You could of course admit that god could have used a more sensible, logical approach to reaching us, but, now, that would mean questioning your great leader, wouldn't it? And we can't do that, now can we. We must all stand in line, follow orders and never question the tyran and dictator.
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    29 May '14 16:26
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Is it logical?
    Logic has it's own failings.

    1. We have a limited intellect. This disallows us to understand the bigger picture. In other words, we can't know all the facts, let alone the implications for those relating to us.

    2. We assume that the truth can always be found in logic. However, I would ask this, is it logical to lay down your life for a complete stranger, or even someon who hates you?
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    29 May '14 16:44
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Well, the idea among theists is that in regards to theology, faith trumps logic. Logic has its place, to be sure, but it can't get its feet under itself, so to speak, when discussing theology. I'm no logic master, for sure, but I do not need to be to have faith in God.

    If one needs logic so much that one must suckle at the teat of logic, to the excepti ...[text shortened]... raid I can't explain faith to that one. It must be felt, it must be experienced, to be "known".
    I’d be interested to know how many theists on the forum agree with you that faith trumps logic when it comes to theology. I’d venture a guess that a majority of theists here (or at least a sizeable minority), believe that their theism is a more logical conclusion than the alternatives.
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    29 May '14 16:48
    Originally posted by PatNovak
    I’d be interested to know how many theists on the forum agree with you that faith trumps logic when it comes to theology. I’d venture a guess that a majority of theists here (or at least a sizeable minority), believe that their theism is a more logical conclusion than the alternatives.
    Logic is a valuable tool. However, the reason we need faith in the first place is because we are dealing with an all knowing God. At some point, a finite limited mind will have a disconnect with such a God. At this point faith is required. Otherwise, we would reject such a God when we can't make the pieces fit.
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