Originally posted by twhitehead
But why do you interpret them as 'argument "won" one point for atheism'? Why can't you take them as my honest answers about my beliefs? And why do you then, after I have answered, lie that I am secretive about my beliefs?
[b]But I think you mean "the truth" on Twhitehead's terms only.
I mean the truth as best as I can establish it. That does tend ...[text shortened]... ht seem, and any argument for the existence of God must be right however ridiculous it might be.[/b]
I wouldn't put it that way. I would say it this way: I believe I have already established the truth that there is no god, so I am unlikely to bother considering the possibility that there is one. That does not mean I would not consider it if there was good reason to do so.
All I can do as you raise objections to the Christian experience then is show you why what is a problem to you is not or has not been a problem for me.
I don't promise anymore than that, if we ever converse again.
I can only point out what you find as a problem has not been in my experience. At least a problem that you may point out is not an unsurmountable one. There have been problems. None of these cannot be overcome by intimate experience with the living God.
No, I will simply not take your advice because I do not believe a God exists, so I would not be motivated to remove the obstacle that stands between us.
Right.
Much as you claim to think back to when you were not a Christian, you don't seem to understand the concept of not believing in God.
Sure I do.
I can think of a time when to talk about me searching for God was like talking about a mouse in search of a cat.
"Not Interested. Period."
As I recall those days, I think I always believed that there was SOMETHING as a grand answer - a Force, a impersonal Oversoul, a Vibration, maybe just a huge Question Mark somewhere. Seriously.
I do recall tell some people in my zanier moments - "What do you mean? I'm god. I'm god."
Nay, Twhitehead, I do remember not believing in God and being totally clueless about Jesus.
I think God just had great mercy on me. What can I do ?
God just had mercy on me and gave me the ability to believe.
I do think I know who were the people who were praying hard for me.
You seem to think that I secretly do believe in God. Was that perhaps the case for you when you were not a Christian?
Look I sympathize with you and I empathize with you to a degree.
Sorry, rightly or wrongly my empathy, based on my own experience, is not totally boundless.
I think I always believed that there must be some over all SOMETHING. Sometimes I thought is was just the Great Grand Question Mark of existence. But it was SOMETHING.
The moment I realize that God was someone like a Friend to Whom I could take a problem to ... I laughed within myself in surprise.
The simplicity of Jesus Christ had alluded me. And when laser like a microscopic pin prick of truth penetrated my heart, I kind of laughed.
You see, in college ..... AH ... what do you care! Moving on.
sonship:
I cannot impress you with the fact that ultimately "the TRUTH" is a Person. I just cannot do it.
No, I concede, you probably cannot, just as I probably cannot impress you with the fact that you are mistaken.
I am mistaken about a lot of things.
About Jesus being risen and Lord of all?
No mistake.
Tell you what - Time will tell on that matter.
But for the record I do make mistakes about a lot of things.
What I could potentially do however is impress you with the fact that William Lane Craig lost every debate I have seen him in and has some extremely faulty arguments.
Okay. You certainly have a right to that opinion.
But in my experience you wouldn't even admit to that because you seem to think that anyone who is against you, must be wrong, whatever they might say and however sensible it might seem, and any argument for the existence of God must be right however ridiculous it might be.
Not really. There are a few debates out there in which I think the opponent scored some good points that were not overwhelmingly dealt with.
Those are often the ones I return to.
WLC debate with Shelly Kagin left me impressed very much with Shelly Kagin. I would take a course with Kagin without hesitation.
I do not know if he is an athiest or not. He is an ethicist. And frankly the debate
"Is God Needed for Morality?" actually led me to view another whole video with Shelly Kagin to see what else he had to say.
I think WLC's debate with one Sean Carroll was tough one. And now I recall who Sean Carroll is. I told googlefudge I didn't know who he was. Now I recall.
Anyway, I have some objectivity about it.
Off the top of my head, I think Sean Carroll and Shelly Kagin did well up against Craig.
Anyway, the skill of argumentation is really not the final matter here either way. Something deeper in a man's being, in the kernel, in the nucleus of his spiritual being substantiates the reality of the available God, the available Christ.
If God is only available to the brightest and most intellectually astute academics then God is elitist.
The way may be narrow as Jesus said. But it is not narrow on those grounds. IE. only the Phd. can know the truth of life. Too bad for the others who are educated enough.