1. Idaho U.S.A.
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    24 Sep '06 06:51
    Hello, below is a few thoughts to chew on. Right or wrong, ya gotta think about these things...least I do...

    The Logos Theory
    A philosophical side of "String Theory"
    Mark A. McMullen

    IF Energy = Mass,
    AND Mass can = Organic Life,
    AND Organic Life can = Conscious Intelligence,
    THEN...
    Energy can = Conscious Intelligence

    String Theory states that everything in this universe is made of strings of energy. In at least one case, we have seen energy show "awareness", or a Conscious Intelligence.
    The Human Race.
    If it can happen once it can happen again.
    Also, these questions arise..."is organic life the only way energy can manifest awareness?" Or could conscious energy exist just by itself?"
    Let's take it another step. This universe of strings exists on what's called by physicists (Dr. Michio Kaku is my hero), a "Brane" short for "membrane".
    Now, if energy in this one case, ours, can show awareness, why couldn't the "Brane" itself be aware? (Maybe someday they'll change the spelling to "Brain" huh?)
    AND, if energy can be aware on a much higher plane than ours, then creation IS POSSIBLE. No, CERTAIN. I say certain because that's exactly what mankind does or strives to do. CREATE.
    Well, I know if I was this big mass of energy that could think, that's what I would do....
    Isn't that what Einstein said to himself every morning? "I am god, and today I'm going to make a universe. How do I do it...?" (Or something like that)

    The key word in my little math equation is the word "CAN". Energy does not always manifest awareness, but it "can" and has.

    When it comes down to it, from the position of string theory anyway, there is NOTHING in this universe but one thing. Energy. (String Theory is the leading candidate for a Unified Theory of Physics.)

    No matter how much you convert energy to other forms, it still doesn't change what it was "in the beginning" which is a string of energy. I don't think of my computer as "matter", its little strings of energy combining to form a bigger picture. The computer itself is not intelligent, but the beings that created it were.

    Matter is just a manifestation of string energy.

    If a being from say, the 11th dimension could see us, what would he see?
    How would he see us? He probably won't be limited in his vision to our flesh and bones. Chances are we would look more like these beautiful elegant creatures of energy moving from place to place, living in houses made of these busy little vibrating strings. Or possibly also seeing a dance of atoms, or molecules, or possibly they could see us on EVERY level at once. Our mind can't even comprehend that.
    As he views these creatures of energy (us) he realizes they are intelligent and "aware" of being alive. They would be watching "energy manipulate energy" not necessarily watching "human flesh manipulate iron or wood".
    IS ENERGY ALIVE???
    Yes, for we are alive.
  2. Joined
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    28 Sep '06 21:13
    Nice....

    Unfortunately we will never be able to study string theory due to the fact that we will not be able to observe strings anytime in the near future. Which also means that it will remain only a theory with lots of naysayers for many years to come.

    You give a very interesting proposition but, too suppose that tiny vibrations of energy can be proved to have an concious by looking at the human race could be a stretch. It's very thought provoking to know that these strings permeate all 11 dimensions though. They are the ultimate building block, and to understand them and the extra dimensions they are a part of would prolly give us the full grasp of understanding existence.
  3. Standard memberNemesio
    Ursulakantor
    Pittsburgh, PA
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    28 Sep '06 21:33
    Originally posted by BluesChord
    IF Energy = Mass,
    AND Mass can = Organic Life,
    AND Organic Life can = Conscious Intelligence,
    THEN...
    Energy can = Conscious Intelligence
    This is flawed.

    Mass never equals organic life. Mass is a necessary requirement
    for organic life.

    Organic life doesn't equal conscious intelligence either; merely,
    organic life can possess conscious intelligence.

    The only definitive relationship that we can derive from those two
    criteria is that entities with conscious intelligence must be organic lifeforms.
    (I am assuming that AI doesn't exist for simplicity's sake.)

    Lastly, the only conclusion that can be drawn is that for an entity to
    possess conscious intelligence, it must consist of Mass/Energy.

    This conclusion is, obviously, not very helpful, but (in contrast with the
    above one) at least it is true.

    Nemesio
  4. Standard memberfrogstomp
    Bruno's Ghost
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    29 Sep '06 03:12
    Originally posted by BluesChord
    Hello, below is a few thoughts to chew on. Right or wrong, ya gotta think about these things...least I do...

    The Logos Theory
    A philosophical side of "String Theory"
    Mark A. McMullen

    IF Energy = Mass,
    AND Mass can = Organic Life,
    AND Organic Life can = Conscious Intelligence,
    THEN...
    Energy can = Conscious Intelligence

    String T ...[text shortened]... or wood".
    IS ENERGY ALIVE???
    Yes, for we are alive.
    here's something you might be interested in:

    ABSTRACT

    A model consistent with string theory is proposed for so-called paranormal phenomena such as extra-sensory perception (ESP). Our mathematical skills are assumed to derive from a special ‘mental vacuum state’, whose origin is explained on the basis of anthropic and biological arguments, taking into account the need for the informational processes associated with such a state to be of a life-supporting character. ESP is then explained in terms of shared ‘thought bubbles’ generated by the participants out of the mental vacuum state. The paper concludes with a critique of arguments sometimes made claiming to ‘rule out’ the possible existence of paranormal phenomena.

    http://arxiv.org/html/physics/0312012
  5. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
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    29 Sep '06 04:32
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    This is flawed.

    Mass never equals organic life. Mass is a necessary requirement
    for organic life.

    Organic life doesn't equal conscious intelligence either; merely,
    organic life can possess conscious intelligence.

    The only definitive relationship that we can derive from those two
    criteria is that entities with conscious intell ...[text shortened]... usly, not very helpful, but (in contrast with the
    above one) at least it is true.

    Nemesio
    nemesio: The only definitive relationship that we can derive from those two
    criteria is that entities with conscious intelligence must be organic lifeforms.

    This is hardly a "definitive relationship" and the word "must" should be replaced with "can".

    The first post's ideas seem close to the Eastern concept of the Tao.
  6. Standard memberNemesio
    Ursulakantor
    Pittsburgh, PA
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    29 Sep '06 04:37
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    This is hardly a "definitive relationship" and the word "must" should be replaced with "can".
    You know of a non-organic lifeform with conscious intelligence?
  7. Hmmm . . .
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    29 Sep '06 04:42
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    nemesio: The only definitive relationship that we can derive from those two
    criteria is that entities with conscious intelligence must be organic lifeforms.

    This is hardly a "definitive relationship" and the word "must" should be replaced with "can".

    The first post's ideas seem close to the Eastern concept of the Tao.
    The first post's ideas seem close to the Eastern concept of the Tao.

    Yes!—if Tao is not overly “metaphysicalized” (I’m sure that’s not really a word).

    Thank you for that insight (as he goes off once more in search of his favorite translation of the Tao Te Ching amidst the book-rubble...).
  8. Cape Town
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    29 Sep '06 09:49
    The fact that concious intelligence exists and the only known example (Other than unproven things like gods, spirits etc) is dependant on mass and energy, prooves nothing more than that concious intelligence is possible. Whether the universe as a whole could be concious should not be dependant on string theory or any other theory of that nature but rather on your definition of concious intelligence.
    If the universe was concious it would not imply that the conciousness is capabable of manipulating all aspects of the universe.
    In fact conciousness is a loose definition for a set of interesting physical interactions and not some specific definable entity. It is rather like the definition of life.
  9. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
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    29 Sep '06 10:01
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    You know of a non-organic lifeform with conscious intelligence?
    I don't know of one. That doesn't mean the existence of one can be "definitively" excluded.
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    29 Sep '06 20:08
    God solves a lot of questions. God is not proven but then again why should He?
  11. Standard memberNemesio
    Ursulakantor
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    29 Sep '06 22:59
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    I don't know of one. That doesn't mean the existence of one can be "definitively" excluded.
    Well, neither can we exclude a speaking pig.

    Sure, I can fantasize about 11 dimensions wherein neutrons speak to
    each other. And, given that I only work in three physical dimensions
    and a temporal one, I can't disprove it.

    But experience tells us that there aren't and haven't been speaking
    pigs. Why should we disregard vast amounts of experience when
    making judgments about the world? Why should we entertain the
    possibility of speaking pigs? Because we can imagine it?

    If you can't offer a logically plausible scenario wherein a non-organic
    entity has conscious intelligence (and, again, I except AI since there is
    debate about its possibility which I accept), what do you do with the
    infinitude of other logically implausible tenets in the universe?

    Nemesio
  12. Subscriberno1marauder
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    30 Sep '06 05:271 edit
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    Well, neither can we exclude a speaking pig.

    Sure, I can fantasize about 11 dimensions wherein neutrons speak to
    each other. And, given that I only work in three physical dimensions
    and a temporal one, I can't disprove it.

    But experience tells us that there aren't and haven't been speaking
    pigs. Why should we disregard vast amounts of experienc ou do with the
    infinitude of other logically implausible tenets in the universe?

    Nemesio
    Experience and Newtonian physics told us that if two beams of light were approaching each other, that it would seem to an observer on one of the beams of light was travelling at 372,000 miles per second. The Mickelson-Morley experiments showed this didn't happen and this experimental result was the basis for Einstein's Theory of Relativity. Bottom line: you can only go so far with present human experience.

    You might look into the subject of superluminal transfers of information and Bell's Theorem as far as present scientific understanding of the universe moreover. There's some funny business going on that might be explainable in terms of a conscious universe. This is, of course, hardly a new concept whether you personally find it "logically plausible" or not.

    EDIT: Here's a site for Bell's Theorem: http://www.upscale.utoronto.ca/PVB/Harrison/BellsTheorem/BellsTheorem.html

    This is the salient part:

    In the last section we made two assumptions to derive Bell's inequality which here become:

    * Logic is valid.
    * Electrons have spin in a given direction even if we do not measure it.

    Now we have added a third assumption in order to beat the Uncertainty Principle:

    * No information can travel faster than the speed of light.

    We will state these a little more succinctly as:

    1. Logic is valid.
    2. There is a reality separate from its observation
    3. Locality.

    You will recall the we discussed proofs by negation. The fact that our final form of Bell's inequality is experimentally violated indicates that at least one of the three assumptions we have made have been shown to be wrong.
  13. Joined
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    30 Sep '06 14:42
    Originally posted by BluesChord
    Hello, below is a few thoughts to chew on. Right or wrong, ya gotta think about these things...least I do...

    The Logos Theory
    A philosophical side of "String Theory"
    Mark A. McMullen

    IF Energy = Mass,
    AND Mass can = Organic Life,
    AND Organic Life can = Conscious Intelligence,
    THEN...
    Energy can = Conscious Intelligence

    String T ...[text shortened]... or wood".
    IS ENERGY ALIVE???
    Yes, for we are alive.
    All of this is what Derrida called the search for a logos (reason) through a trascendental signifier, namely god.
  14. Idaho U.S.A.
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    02 Oct '06 17:38
    Thank you all for your input. Hopefully a few had the opportunity to "think" from this post. I know I did.

    I like this...
    no1marauder
    "The first post's ideas seem close to the Eastern concept of the Tao".
    I'll take that as a compliment. Thanks.
    Why is it everything in my life comes back to Tao?
    aahhh the zen riddle

    Was Jesus a Buddist Monk? Sometimes I wonder....I mean, just look at his life and teachings....seriously.
  15. Cape Town
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    03 Oct '06 06:14
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    Well, neither can we exclude a speaking pig.

    Sure, I can fantasize about 11 dimensions wherein neutrons speak to
    each other. And, given that I only work in three physical dimensions
    and a temporal one, I can't disprove it.

    But experience tells us that there aren't and haven't been speaking
    pigs. Why should we disregard vast amounts of experienc ...[text shortened]... ou do with the
    infinitude of other logically implausible tenets in the universe?

    Nemesio
    Experience does not tell us that there is no non-biological concious intelligence in the universe, only that there is none on this planet and probably none in the solar system. Unless you have visited or at least gained some sort of experience of other planets then you cannot make that sort of claims about them based on experience.
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