Spirituality
21 Jun 17
21 Jun 17
Reading the passage from Rajk's recent thread, I thought the topic deserved a side thread.
I find the concept of "loving my enemies" extremely unnatural. I can understand not always letting your enemy provoke you with cheap jibes. I can understand being less harsh with an enemy than they might deserve, because none of us are perfect and we tend to appreciate some mercy when we ourselves screw up. I can understand subduing my ego so that my enemies cannot easily manipulate me. But love? Can't get there. Almost seems like we couldn't be enemies anymore if that change came about.
21 Jun 17
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemMaybe the word "love" needs to be dissected a bit and a definition cobbled together in order to shoehorn it into the concept.
Reading the passage from Rajk's recent thread, I thought the topic deserved a side thread.
I find the concept of "loving my enemies" extremely unnatural. I can understand not always letting your enemy provoke you with cheap jibes. I can understand being less harsh with an enemy than they might deserve, because none of us are perfect and we tend to ...[text shortened]... ve? Can't get there. Almost seems like we couldn't be enemies anymore if that change came about.
Stuff like 'empathize with', 'don't dehumanize', 'be merciful', 'look for the positive', 'wish for reconciliation', and so on ...if we accumulate enough of these components, might we end up with some kind of hodge podge of positives that you could slap the label "love" on?
21 Jun 17
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemAlmost seems like we couldn't be enemies anymore if that change came about.
Reading the passage from Rajk's recent thread, I thought the topic deserved a side thread.
I find the concept of "loving my enemies" extremely unnatural. I can understand not always letting your enemy provoke you with cheap jibes. I can understand being less harsh with an enemy than they might deserve, because none of us are perfect and we tend to ...[text shortened]... ve? Can't get there. Almost seems like we couldn't be enemies anymore if that change came about.
I'm thinking that's the point.
21 Jun 17
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemWell we are called to love God and others as ourselves, there isn't a distinction between
Reading the passage from Rajk's recent thread, I thought the topic deserved a side thread.
I find the concept of "loving my enemies" extremely unnatural. I can understand not always letting your enemy provoke you with cheap jibes. I can understand being less harsh with an enemy than they might deserve, because none of us are perfect and we tend to ...[text shortened]... ve? Can't get there. Almost seems like we couldn't be enemies anymore if that change came about.
friends and foes. God shows all of us His love each day, He gives sunshine to the good
and evil, He gives rain to the just and unjust. He also tells us to forgive because we were
forgiven.
I met a man, Pastor Protais whose story will let you know what grace and forgiveness
towards an enemy is like in the extreme. I have posted this before, but trust me if you
want to see God's grace, read this link below. Our church and his worked together, his
testimony is better read than talked about.
http://preparethewayministry.com/content/protais-rwandan-genocide-survivor%E2%80%99s-story
Matthew 5:45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Originally posted by KellyJay[b]Well we are called to love God and others as ourselves, there isn't a distinction between friends and foes. God shows all of us His love each day, He gives sunshine to the good and evil, He gives rain to the just and unjust. He also tells us to forgive because we were forgiven.
Well we are called to love God and others as ourselves, there isn't a distinction between
friends and foes. God shows all of us His love each day, He gives sunshine to the good
and evil, He gives rain to the just and unjust. He also tells us to forgive because we were
forgiven.
I met a man, Pastor Protais whose story will let you know what grace and f ...[text shortened]... eth his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
IIRC you support capital punishment.
How do you explain maintaining that position given what I quoted above? Without the above being nothing more that empty platitudes?
21 Jun 17
Originally posted by KellyJayRwanda aside, how do you think Pastor Protais would have demonstrated grace and forgiveness towards people like twhitehead, divegeester and myself if he'd got into some of the awful debate-scrapes & disagreements you've got into here with us on this forum?
I met a man, Pastor Protais whose story will let you know what grace and forgiveness towards an enemy is like in the extreme.
21 Jun 17
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemA spinoff from my thread, I would be happy to participate.
Reading the passage from Rajk's recent thread, I thought the topic deserved a side thread.
I find the concept of "loving my enemies" extremely unnatural. I can understand not always letting your enemy provoke you with cheap jibes. I can understand being less harsh with an enemy than they might deserve, because none of us are perfect and we tend to ...[text shortened]... ve? Can't get there. Almost seems like we couldn't be enemies anymore if that change came about.
Can you tell me what you make of the words of Jesus surrounding the phrase which is a cause for concern?
Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. (Luke 6:30-35 KJV)
My take is as follows:
Anybody and everybody even the most vile and sinful, is capable of treating people well, who treat them well also. It takes nothing to do that. Jesus is saying that you can do better, because that is what sons of God do.
22 Jun 17
Originally posted by FMFAlmost. But for me, those things don't add up all the way to "love". More like kindness and empathy.
Maybe the word "love" needs to be dissected a bit and a definition cobbled together in order to shoehorn it into the concept.
Stuff like 'empathize with', 'don't dehumanize', 'be merciful', 'look for the positive', 'wish for reconciliation', and so on ...if we accumulate enough of these components, might we end up with some kind of hodge podge of positives that you could slap the label "love" on?
When not reciprocated, it seems sensible to limit the extent one will go for kindness. I may not return the abuse my enemy gives me, but neither am I going to play the sucker or victim for him.
22 Jun 17
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneReconciliation is good, but requires both parties to work. If my enemy is dead set on remaining my enemy, despite reasonable overtures of reconciliation, I can't obey the commandment.
[b]Almost seems like we couldn't be enemies anymore if that change came about.
I'm thinking that's the point.[/b]
22 Jun 17
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999My immediate take on the "surrounding" words is that Jesus seems to make light of people loving those that love them, for one. From observation, not everyone who is loved returns that love. Some people respond by taking advantage of those feelings to manipulate the person to their own selfish ends.
A spinoff from my thread, I would be happy to participate.
Can you tell me what you make of the words of Jesus surrounding the phrase which is a cause for concern?
[i]Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. For if ye love the ...[text shortened]... nothing to do that. Jesus is saying that you can do better, because that is what sons of God do.
The same goes for most of Jesus' examples. Plenty of people borrow money from a friend but won't loan that friend money when THEY need it, for example.
It's as if Jesus is assuming that even sinners follow the Golden Rule towards one another (and strangely, judgmentally, that is of no credit to them!); if that really were true, there wouldn't need to be a GR in the first place.
Originally posted by KellyJayHe does all this that you write and he demands that we love our enemies...and yet according to you, he's completely OK with burning his enemies for eternity in hell?
Well we are called to love God and others as ourselves, there isn't a distinction between friends and foes. Good d shows all of us His love each day, He gives sunshine to the good and evil, He gives rain to the just and unjust. He also tells us to forgive because we were
forgiven.
23 Jun 17
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemLove means love, none of us live alone in this life. Each one of us were at one time
Almost. But for me, those things don't add up all the way to "love". More like kindness and empathy.
When not reciprocated, it seems sensible to limit the extent one will go for kindness. I may not return the abuse my enemy gives me, but neither am I going to play the sucker or victim for him.
completely lost, and God has reached out to save us all. We are forgiven, for each sin,
each wicked hateful word, each thought that is against another and God Himself.
Since we are forgiven so much if we go to God for salvation we need to forgive all that
have wronged us. For those that have come to God for His grace, we should hold nothing
back in our hearts towards any other. If we are not God's well, there are other issues.
Loving the next guy and God has always been the proper way to live, its never changed.