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Spirituality

Spirituality

  1. Standard member Ghost of a Duke
    Zen Master
    12 Mar '18 12:42
    'Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD, But those who deal faithfully are His delight.' (Proverbs 12:22)


    It is my proposition that, socially speaking, the above biblical verse (and others like it) are offering poor advice, and that lying is necessary for the efficient running of society.

    Now, I'm 'not' underplaying honesty and integrity. Obviously these are qualities that are also vital for the functioning of a civilised society. But imagine for a moment a society in which nobody lied, and that when you asked somebody in the morning, for example, "How are you today?" that instead of a customary "Fine thanks," they went on to tell you about all of their woes and ailments?
    So instead of "Fine thanks" and everybody moving on with their day, we had instead "My cat died, I had no sleep last night, I have a have a painful big toe etc etc."

    'Small lies' are necessary for society not to grind to a halt. It makes us more efficient as a species and to get things done.
  2. Subscriber FMF
    Main Poster
    12 Mar '18 12:45
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    'Small lies' are necessary for society not to grind to a halt. It makes us more efficient as a species and to get things done.
    Yes. Indeed. And 'big lies' can, of course, be morally acceptable too in the face of threats and other morally unsound acts.
  3. 12 Mar '18 12:47
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    'Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD, But those who deal faithfully are His delight.' (Proverbs 12:22)


    It is my proposition that, socially speaking, the above biblical verse (and others like it) are offering poor advice, and that lying is necessary for the efficient running of society.

    Now, I'm 'not' underplaying honesty and integrit ...[text shortened]... society not to grind to a halt. It makes us more efficient as a species and to get things done.
    Indeed. Without telling lies would be all dying in the streets!

    If you go round telling the truth all the time you wind up on a cross

    Ain't nobody got time for that!
  4. 12 Mar '18 12:50 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    'Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD, But those who deal faithfully are His delight.' (Proverbs 12:22)


    It is my proposition that, socially speaking, the above biblical verse (and others like it) are offering poor advice, and that lying is necessary for the efficient running of society.

    Now, I'm 'not' underplaying honesty and integrit ...[text shortened]... society not to grind to a halt. It makes us more efficient as a species and to get things done.
    Yes there are times when a technically incorrect fact is necessary but I don’t consider these lies. For example, “I’m fine” is a dismissive auto response which could suffixed with “enough” “I’m well enough, thanks” in fact I’ve sometimes said this.

    If my wife asks me how she looks I tell her the truth every time. It carries risk but is a much better strategy than using “casual lying” to easy ones self out of an awkward situation.

    In the case of Romans1009 question, if a female asked me what I thought of her hairstyle I would tell her the truth. This recently happened on Facebook where a friend had her hair cut very short and asked for opinions; I said it was nice but I preferred it the way it was etc.

    The casual lying and gross intellectual dishonesty that goes on this forum is astonishing.
  5. Subscriber Rajk999
    Enjoying
    12 Mar '18 13:51
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    'Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD, But those who deal faithfully are His delight.' (Proverbs 12:22)


    It is my proposition that, socially speaking, the above biblical verse (and others like it) are offering poor advice, and that lying is necessary for the efficient running of society.

    Now, I'm 'not' underplaying honesty and integrit ...[text shortened]... society not to grind to a halt. It makes us more efficient as a species and to get things done.
    I disagree.
    Those are not lies.
  6. Standard member Ghost of a Duke
    Zen Master
    12 Mar '18 14:55
    Originally posted by @rajk999
    I disagree.
    Those are not lies.
    Is not an 'untruth' a lie?

    I recall, many years ago, while working in a Day Centre for people with dementia, that an elderly lady arrived in the morning with toothpaste smeared all over her face (clearly having mistaken it for face cream). As was her custom and need for reassurance, she asked me how she looked.
    I replied something along the lines of 'you look great Mrs X' while signaling to a female colleague who discreetly took her into a side room to resolve the issue and save her embarrassment.
    Obviously I wasn't truthful in response to her question, and had told a 'lie of kindness' in order not to embarrass or upset her. The alternative would have been to say:

    "No you don't look good. You have toothpaste on your face."
  7. Subscriber Rajk999
    Enjoying
    12 Mar '18 15:23 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    Is not an 'untruth' a lie?

    I recall, many years ago, while working in a Day Centre for people with dementia, that an elderly lady arrived in the morning with toothpaste smeared all over her face (clearly having mistaken it for face cream). As was her custom and need for reassurance, she asked me how she looked.
    I replied something along the lin ...[text shortened]... ternative would have been to say:

    "No you don't look good. You have toothpaste on your face."
    Well I will stick with what Proverbs is speaking of. Before I do that there is something in life [in the Bible as well] called TMI [too much information]. Telling people who ask, that you are ok when in fact you are not is not a lie. Telling them your life story which is not their business is TMI. Im sure I can find somewhere in the Bible where Solomon speaks of this TMI and how the wise hold their tongue bu the fool will prattle on.

    God dislikes talkers and loves doers, plus God hates liars of the type described in the passage you quoted. Read the whole of Proverbs 12 and you will see that it is liars who bear false witness are the ones that Solomon speaks of, and also speaks of people to talk too much ie talking out their business to others
  8. Standard member Ghost of a Duke
    Zen Master
    12 Mar '18 16:31
    Originally posted by @rajk999
    Well I will stick with what Proverbs is speaking of. Before I do that there is something in life [in the Bible as well] called TMI [too much information]. Telling people who ask, that you are ok when in fact you are not is not a lie. Telling them your life story which is not their business is TMI. Im sure I can find somewhere in the Bible where Solomon spe ...[text shortened]... on speaks of, and also speaks of people to talk too much ie talking out their business to others
    Yeah, my OP was intentionally provocative. (All good OPs should be).

    Would you concede there are varying degrees of lying?
  9. Subscriber Rajk999
    Enjoying
    12 Mar '18 16:37
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    Yeah, my OP was intentionally provocative. (All good OPs should be).

    Would you concede there are varying degrees of lying?
    Of course there is. There are little untruths designed to keep meddlesome fools out of your business, and there are lies that result in suffering and innocent deaths.

    God hates the second type and those who practice/d it will be on his hit list.
  10. 12 Mar '18 16:53 / 1 edit
  11. 12 Mar '18 16:54 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    'Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD, But those who deal faithfully are His delight.' (Proverbs 12:22)


    It is my proposition that, socially speaking, the above biblical verse (and others like it) are offering poor advice, and that lying is necessary for the efficient running of society.

    Now, I'm 'not' underplaying honesty and integrit ...[text shortened]... society not to grind to a halt. It makes us more efficient as a species and to get things done.
    It is my proposition that, socially speaking, the above biblical verse (and others like it) are offering poor advice, and that lying is necessary for the efficient running of society.

    'Small lies' are necessary for society not to grind to a halt. It makes us more efficient as a species and to get things done.


    This isn't true. Your "How are you?" example is an obvious false dichotomy that's just silly. As is the conclusion that you drew from it.
  12. Standard member Ghost of a Duke
    Zen Master
    12 Mar '18 17:39
    Originally posted by @rajk999
    Of course there is. There are little untruths designed to keep meddlesome fools out of your business, and there are lies that result in suffering and innocent deaths.

    God hates the second type and those who practice/d it will be on his hit list.
    God has a hit list?
  13. Subscriber Rajk999
    Enjoying
    12 Mar '18 17:44
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    God has a hit list?
    Of course ..

    Recompense to no man evil for evil.
    Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
    If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
    Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves,
    but rather give place unto wrath:
    for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
    (Romans 12:17-19 KJV)


    God will take vengeance on evil people.
  14. Standard member Ghost of a Duke
    Zen Master
    12 Mar '18 17:46
    Originally posted by @rajk999
    Of course ..

    Recompense to no man evil for evil.
    Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
    If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
    Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves,
    but rather give place unto wrath:
    for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
    (Romans 12:17-19 KJV)


    God will take vengeance on evil people.
    Phew, I'm in the clear.
  15. Subscriber Rajk999
    Enjoying
    12 Mar '18 18:12
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    Phew, I'm in the clear.
    Lol ... good to hear.