Lying - A social necessity?

Originally posted by @rajk999
The wise man knows when to hold his tongue, or use his wisdom to divert a potential disaster. Jesus did it all the time with the Pharisees. They constantly asked him questions and rather that tell the truth he diverted the topic or spoke in parables.

Let me know if you want some examples.

How can an individual simultaneously both "stand in the truth" and lie?

Originally posted by @thinkofone
How can an individual simultaneously both "stand in the truth" and lie?

When 'standing in the truth' involves the realization that sometimes in life it is necessary to lie.

How can you stand to sit there and lie to me?

Originally posted by @thinkofone
How can an individual simultaneously both "stand in the truth" and lie?

Here is an example of a lying cheating steward which Jesus apparently condoned:

And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward. Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed. I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses. So he called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord? And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty. Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore. And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light. And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations. (Luke 16:1-9 KJV)

Originally posted by @rajk999
Here is an example of a lying cheating steward which Jesus apparently condoned:

And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou ma ...[text shortened]... ss; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations. (Luke 16:1-9 KJV)

That's a game changer! Well found.


"And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely."

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
That's a game changer! Well found.


"And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely."

Yeah .. a good parable but it can be abused by some people.

Originally posted by @rajk999
Yeah .. a good parable but it can be abused by some people.

We both know I am probably one of those people.

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
We both know I am probably one of those people.

Somehow I doubt it 🙂

Originally posted by @rajk999
Here is an example of a lying cheating steward which Jesus apparently condoned:

And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou ma ...[text shortened]... ss; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations. (Luke 16:1-9 KJV)

You don't seem to understand the meaning of the parable. You don't seem to have taken into account key verses that explain the lesson being taught.

In the parable there is a strict dichotomy between two "kinds": the "sons of this age" vs. the "sons of the light". That is, a strict dichotomy between the unrighteous vs. the righteous. The "rich man" and the "manager" are both amongst the unrighteous.

This parable basically builds upon the concepts introduced in the following:
Luke 6
43“For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. 44“For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. 45“The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.

One of Jesus' points is that the unrighteous are more true to their own "kind". They are unrighteous, act unrighteously and praise unrighteousness: "8 And his master praised the unrighteous manager because he had acted shrewdly; for the sons of this age are more shrewd in relation to their own kind than the sons of light".

Jesus is calling for the "sons of light" to be as righteous as the "sons of this age" are unrighteous.

A few more verses that help drive that point home and you don't seem to have taken into account are the following:
10“He who is faithful in a very little thing is faithful also in much; and he who is unrighteous in a very little thing is unrighteous also in much.
13“No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.”
14Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were scoffing at Him.
15And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God.

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
'Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD, But those who deal faithfully are His delight.' (Proverbs 12:22)


It is my proposition that, socially speaking, the above biblical verse (and others like it) are offering poor advice, and that lying is necessary for the efficient running of society.

Now, I'm 'not' underplaying honesty and integrit ...[text shortened]... society not to grind to a halt. It makes us more efficient as a species and to get things done.

Deceit is commonplace. think about how animals use camouflage to hide from predators or for that matter to hide from prey until it is too late. And go from there.

Originally posted by @js357
Deceit is commonplace. think about how animals use camouflage to hide from predators or for that matter to hide from prey until it is too late. And go from there.

So look askance at things. Be skeptical.

@Ghost

From the standpoint of philosophy, with no particular religious dogma to promote, truth is an instrumental good, not an intrinsic good. Whereas, justice, for example is an intrinsic good.

From this it follows that:

a) if, in a given situation, telling the truth would very likely lead to clear and present injustice, then one ought not to tell the truth (e.g., one ought to be silent);

and b) if, in a given situation, telling a lie would very likely avoid a clear and present injustice, then one ought to lie.

It is easy to construct hypothetical situations based on real historical precedents to demonstrate the validity of the above observation.

Suppose: you live in some Nazi-occupied territory; you are sheltering a Jewish family in secret; the gestapo knocks on your door and asks a direct question, "Are you sheltering any Jews?" Cleary, refusing to answer would be suspicious and probably provoke a forced search of the premises, so conclusion a) above is not sufficient to avoid a clear and present danger of gross injustice. Therefore, the morally correct thing to do is b), namely to lie, "No, we are not sheltering any Jews."

This principle has been enshrined in present German law under the concept of Notluege ("emergency fib" ).

Is lying socially necessary, you ask. I would go much further; lying is, in some contexts, morally obligatory and a legal entitlement.

Originally posted by @moonbus
... lying is, in some contexts, morally obligatory and a legal entitlement.

That seems very obvious. If you are trying to hurt me or mine, I have no obligation to be truthful.

Originally posted by @moonbus
@Ghost

From the standpoint of philosophy, with no particular religious dogma to promote, truth is an instrumental good, not an intrinsic good. Whereas, justice, for example is an intrinsic good.

From this it follows that:

a) if, in a given situation, telling the truth would very likely lead to clear and present injustice, then one oug ...[text shortened]... h further; lying is, in some contexts, morally obligatory and a legal entitlement.

A great contribution to the thread. To my mind, it has been aptly argued that lying is occasionally a necessity and a wise course of action,..and yes, at times even a moral obligation.

This being the case, would Jesus himself have considered certain lies as morally acceptable? (if they prevented harm being done to others etc). The classic example of course is

(John 7:8) -"Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come."

(John 7:10) - "But when His brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up, not publicly, but as it were, in secret."

Originally posted by @rajk999
Yeah .. a good parable but it can be abused by some people.

Spot on