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Originally posted by robbie carrobiethis of yours post belongs in Thread 137545
but you see Agers, its not only i who have noticed this unsavoury trend of yours, others are also concerned!
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Originally posted by Agergdont worry i posted it twice, now to the accusation, that of the deceptive characterisation of others, how do you plead, guilty, not guilty or we could effect Scots law and you may get away with a not proven? do you plan to defend yourself or appoint a representative?
this of yours post belongs in Thread 137545
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Originally posted by robbie carrobiethis post of yours belongs in Thread 137545
dont worry i posted it twice, now to the accusation, that of the deceptive characterisation of others, how do you plead, guilty, not guilty or we could effect Scots law and you may get away with a not proven? do you plan to defend yourself or appoint a representative?
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Originally posted by Agergthe accusation remains Agers, regardless of where it is posted, refusing to face the facts will not make it go away. Is the bad ol putty cat afraid to face the charges? is he , dare i say it, cowardly? poor bad ol putty cat!
this of yours post belongs in Thread 137545
Originally posted by robbie carrobiethis post of yours belongs in Thread 137545
the accusation remains Agers, regardless of where it is posted, refusing to face the facts will not make it go away.
Lying is usually bad and almost always risky.
There is a festival with 100.000 people. A small fire starts. Public near the fire grab their phones and twitter it around. The danger of panic is immanent. The organization wonders about the best strategy. What should she tell the public?
1. Nothing
2. There is fire but they can handle it. (truth)
3. There was a small fire, but the problem is solved (a lie, because it is not yet solved)
I think, as someone already wrote, lies are permitted when they clearly prevent greater harm. Nevertheless lies are a dangerous road to take. In a situation where it after all didn t prevent greater harm, the liar has to explain a lot. Besides that lies threaten to erode the trustworthiness of the speaker in the future, even when the lie is done with the best intention.
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Originally posted by Agergmembers of the jury shall be told to disregard your vain protests and evasive steps, failure to either acknowledge the charges or to make a defence may be deemed as an admonition of guilt and you shall hence forth be known as a cowardly and deceptive slanderer who deliberately and deceptively engages in the defamatory characterisation of others! yes yes the thread belongs elsewhere, it is noteworthy that even in this regard you are trying to portray another in a deceptive and defamatory manner, the evidence is incontrovertible!
this post of yours belongs in Thread 137545
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Originally posted by souvereinI don't really disagree with you given you qualify this with "usually" as opposed to "always". There are certainly some deceptive statements which serve the greater good with an economy that cannot be met by some other truthful statement. My issue in this thread has been the universality and generality of all lies being bad which certain theists tend to espouse - and I haven't actually been given an argument (beyond anything equivalent to simply reasserting the proposition) to support the position by those who hold it.
Lying is usually bad and almost always risky.
There is a festival with 100.000 people. A small fire starts. Public near the fire grab their phones and twitter it around. The danger of panic is immanent. The organization wonders about the best strategy. What should she tell the public?
1. Nothing
2. There is fire but they can handle it. (truth)
3. The ...[text shortened]... trustworthiness of the speaker in the future, even when the lie is done with the best intention.
As for threatening trust, depending on the sort of lie I would be inclined to agree with you in most cases (if the lie is uncovered that is) - I think again though there are a number of exceptions - especially when we consider young children for whom a 'nice' lie is forgotton almost as quickly as it was delivered and long before the positive effect wears off.
Originally posted by robbie carrobiethis post of yours belongs in Thread 137545
members of the jury shall be told to disregard your vain protests and evasive steps, failure to either acknowledge the charges or to make a defence may be deemed as an admonition of guilt and you shall hence forth be known as a cowardly and deceptive slanderer who deliberately and deceptively engages in the defamatory characterisation of others! yes ...[text shortened]... rying to portray another in a deceptive and defamatory manner, the evidence is incontrovertible!
Originally posted by AgergKant would say that lying is bad, Mills would say that it is subjective. pick one
I'm sure not only Robbie Carrobie holds that lying is always bad (because the Bible says so); my question is why??? to this end perhaps someone will point out where in these examples telling the truth would be a better solution:
Dave: "Hi Greg!...how you doing?"
Me: (having only had a couple of hours sleep, am in a hurry to get somewhere Dave isn't, ...[text shortened]... rds his mum looking for more approval of his "talents".
Originally posted by AgergThere are certainly some deceptive statements which serve the greater good with an economy that cannot be met by some other truthful statement. My issue in this thread has been the universality and generality of all lies being bad which certain theists tend to espouse - and I haven't actually been given an argument (beyond gainsaying) to support the position by those who hold it.
I don't really disagree with you given you qualify this with "usually" as opposed to "always". There are certainly some deceptive statements which serve the greater good with an economy that cannot be met by some other truthful statement. My issue in this thread has been the universality and generality of all lies being bad which certain theists tend to espous ...[text shortened]... ton almost as quickly as it was delivered and long before the positive effect wears off.
Agree, and at the same time the necessety of cunning indicates there is something badly wrong with such an economy system.
As for threatening trust, depending on the sort of lie I would be inclined to agree with you in most cases (if the lie is uncovered that is) - I think again though there are a number of exceptions - especially when we consider young children for whom a 'nice' lie is forgotton almost as quickly as it was delivered and long before the positive effect wears off.
Yes, I agree if you mean Xmas stories. But I wonder if Father Xmas (Santa Claus) stories are lies. To me they are more like long termed jokes. Jokes very often contain some twisted truths. We like them because they make life more exciting colourful. I think that is why kids can easily accept them. You were not lying, but playful kidding.
Real lies - even with the best intentions - are normally in the long run very harmful to young children.
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Originally posted by AgergEvidently you believe your attempts to characterize my trying to get you to understand the points of my posts and/or trying to get you back to the points as something they aren't. Evidently it makes you "feel better" to do so and serve as examples of your ability to self-deceive.
On the contrary; I make no deceptive characterizations at all - I admire your diligence to the principles of circularity, economy of thought, and non too subtle insults. You have clearly surpassed all the brilliant fundies on this board such as RBHILL (et al) in this pursuit and you have my sincerest respect for this.
I genuinely lie down here in the creti ...[text shortened]... ift and philosophical genius that no other person has the capacity to understand or acknowledge.
This comes as no surprise coming from a guy who said this:
"Too right I'd like to hear a lie sometimes!"
Talk about self-deception.
You place "feeling good" above the truth and so it it easy for you to deceive yourself when it "feels good" to do so. More's the pity.
Like I said:
"Lying to people in an attempt to make them 'happy' works against their well being. If they don't believe you, it undermines the trust between you. If they do believe you, it gives them a skewed view of reality. Most have enough trouble having realistic views of themselves and the universe without it being compounded by people telling them lies."
You can count yourself as one who has trouble having a realistic view of yourself and the universe. You live in a world of deception including self-deception. That you so readily condone lying to children serves to underscore this point.
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOneYou always tell the truth presumably because you feel you have some objective duty to do this, this is done with the binary mindset that things are either black or they are white. You have not presented me with a rational argument to support your universal position other than it is true by your decree.
Evidently you believe your attempts to characterize my trying to get you to understand the points of my posts and/or trying to get you back to the points as something they aren't. Evidently it makes you "feel better" to do so and serve as examples of your ability to self-deceive.
This comes as no surprise coming from a guy who said this:
"Too right I' . That you so readily condone lying to children serves to underscore this point.
Your responses will be of the form
- "You miss the point, I said..." (without actually critiquing the offered points so to demonstate you are correct)
- "Looks like you're employing ego-defence mechanisms..."
- "If you don't understand that lying is always wrong there is little point trying to reason with you..."
- "You seem to like lying, perhaps you are a ..."
- "You are stupid and you are..."
- "None of those, infact... [insert some trivial response]"