1. Standard memberAgerg
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    23 Jan '11 10:486 edits
    I'm sure not only Robbie Carrobie holds that lying is always bad (because the Bible says so); my question is why??? to this end perhaps someone will point out where in these examples telling the truth would be a better solution:

    Dave: "Hi Greg!...how you doing?"
    Me: (having only had a couple of hours sleep, am in a hurry to get somewhere Dave isn't, and have just had some crappy news that bears little relevance to the troubles Dave might be having or his reason for wanting to swap pleasantries) "Hi Dave, I'm not so bad thanksReveal Hidden Content
    a lie
    ...and you?"

    *small talk continues and ends in due course; neither of us have any impressions about the other they are a "miserable sod", and perhaps we should avoid them next time we see each other

    Hooded stranger winding his way inside my comfort zone: "ere mate...got any cigs ah can lend off ya?"
    Me: (with a couple of cigarettes left that I don't want to be giving away to strangers and not wanting to engage this person in dialogue, or *share* anything else) "No sorry mate...don't smokeReveal Hidden Content
    making sure the cuboidal bulge in my pocket is obscured from his line of sight
    "

    Hooded manReveal Hidden Content
    (who isn\'t closing the distance between myself and him as fast as he\'s walking - since I\'m now starting to back away)
    : "k, safe mate"

    Some four year old child, Liam, showing me it's latest crayon scrawlings: "Look it's a cat!"
    Me: (noticing it looks more like a trail of spaghetti than anything which remotely bears any resemblence to an animal - let alone a cat) "Wow that's really goodReveal Hidden Content
    I secretly think it\'s horrible and that drawing is probably not playing to his strengths
    - are those it's whiskers!?"

    Liam: (now with a beaming grin on his face): "yeah they're it's whiskers!"
    Me: "Well done Liam - have you showed it your mummy?"
    Four year old merrily tootles off towards his mum looking for more approval of his "talents".
  2. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    23 Jan '11 10:52
    Aw heck!! no way. Lie,cheat steal for the greter good.
  3. Joined
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    23 Jan '11 13:49
    Originally posted by Agerg
    I'm sure not only Robbie Carrobie holds that lying is always bad (because the Bible says so); my question is why??? to this end perhaps someone will point out where in these examples telling the truth would be a better solution:

    Dave: "Hi Greg!...how you doing?"
    Me: (having only had a couple of hours sleep, am in a hurry to get somewhere Dave isn't, ...[text shortened]... rds his mum looking for more approval of his "talents".
    if i remember correctly the bible does not say "don't lie". the bible says, don't offer false testimony(paraphrasing ofc).

    this should be interpreted as to don't lie when others will get hurt. telling your children that granma died peacefully in her sleep when in fact she was pumped full of morphine and still couldn't bear the pain and it lasted several weeks is not the lying bible forbids
  4. Standard memberAgerg
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    23 Jan '11 15:175 edits
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    if i remember correctly the bible does not say "don't lie". the bible says, don't offer false testimony(paraphrasing ofc).

    this should be interpreted as to don't lie when others will get hurt. telling your children that granma died peacefully in her sleep when in fact she was pumped full of morphine and still couldn't bear the pain and it lasted several weeks is not the lying bible forbids
    Well that would require a pragmatic approach to the Bible as it seems you and other moderates do have; The Robbie Carrobie, RBHill, whodey, KellyJay, etc...followers [1] of this forum however seem to take a somewhat simplistic approach to scripture in that if Bible says don't do X then in ALL cases, anything which can be interpreted (by them) as X is a bad thing to do (unless their god does it of course!).

    I'd be interested in seeing how they can justify this without recourse to their Bible - which I'm fully aware says the things which they infer means ALL lying is bad. That is, can they think independently of the Bible why this should always be true!?




    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1) who seem (taken as the set of all fundamentalist Christians presently gracing these forums with their wisdom) to represent the majority view of theists here.
  5. Standard memberRBHILL
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    23 Jan '11 16:33
    Originally posted by Agerg
    I'm sure not only Robbie Carrobie holds that lying is always bad (because the Bible says so); my question is why??? to this end perhaps someone will point out where in these examples telling the truth would be a better solution:

    Dave: "Hi Greg!...how you doing?"
    Me: (having only had a couple of hours sleep, am in a hurry to get somewhere Dave isn't, ...[text shortened]... rds his mum looking for more approval of his "talents".
    Don't forget about berny mad off who stole billions and lied about it.
  6. Standard memberAgerg
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    23 Jan '11 16:412 edits
    Originally posted by RBHILL
    Don't forget about berny mad off who stole billions and lied about it.
    I don't need to consider any examples of lying which are bad, since as you (presumably) and others think lying is always bad, then as a universal statement it remains for me to come up with at least one counter-example to demonstrate the assertion is false.

    I have given, so far, three; and so it remains for you or your colleagues to shoot them down (without just saying "Bible says noooo" 😞 ).
  7. Joined
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    23 Jan '11 18:24
    Originally posted by Agerg
    I don't need to consider any examples of lying which are bad, since as you (presumably) and others think lying is [b]always bad, then as a universal statement it remains for me to come up with at least one counter-example to demonstrate the assertion is false.

    I have given, so far, three; and so it remains for you or your colleagues to shoot them down (without just saying "Bible says noooo" 😞 ).[/b]
    god himself lied, that should be enough to prove sometimes lying is ok.
  8. Standard memberAgerg
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    23 Jan '11 18:362 edits
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    god himself lied, that should be enough to prove sometimes lying is ok.
    Whence they hit back with the old canard God cannot lie without seeing (if it is implied in the Bible "God" cannot lie) there is no logical paradox if we treat the statement (by a lying god) "God cannot lie" as a lie!
  9. Account suspended
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    23 Jan '11 18:444 edits
    Originally posted by Agerg
    I'm sure not only Robbie Carrobie holds that lying is always bad (because the Bible says so); my question is why??? to this end perhaps someone will point out where in these examples telling the truth would be a better solution:

    Dave: "Hi Greg!...how you doing?"
    Me: (having only had a couple of hours sleep, am in a hurry to get somewhere Dave isn't, rds his mum looking for more approval of his "talents".
    some truly pathetic assertions of the most ludicrous kind,

    1. pretentiousness, like you are supposed to entertain everyone you meet. why not honestly say look mate i am really tired any chance i can just chill!

    2. Have you got a cigarette, no i really do not smoke, its not very good for your health! Or if you are unfortunate enough to do so, sorry i have only enough to satisfy my own slavish addiction for nicotine.

    3. Child with the picture of cat, wow its shows real child like qualities, i like the colours, or the composition is good, did you draw that yourself! My god surely you can find something positive to say with resorting to lying!

    in each and every one of these instances Agers has failed to show why lying is to be preferred to telling the truth, no not one iota of a reason! he has sided with the so called 'moderates, in my opinion, not Christian at all, but a kind of hybrid of secular liberalism and political correctness masquerading as Christianity. Weak and wimpy Christian who have watered down the word of God to suit their own particular spiritual fetish! a form of Godly devotion with no real power! a semblance of the reality, luke warm, fit for nothing but spiting out!
  10. Standard memberAgerg
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    23 Jan '11 18:566 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    some truly pathetic assertions of the most ludicrous kind,

    1. pretentiousness, like you are supposed to entertain everyone you meet. why not honestly say look mate i am really tired any chance i can just chill!

    2. Have you got a cigarette, no i really do not smoke, its not very good for your health! Or if you are unfortunate enough to do so, ...[text shortened]... s failed to show why lying is to be preferred to telling the truth, no not one iota of a reason!
    1. pretentiousness, like you are supposed to entertain everyone you meet. why not honestly say look mate i am really tired any chance i can just chill!
    I see, so when you cross friends paths on the street you always give them the "p*ss off, I can't be ar$ed with you" greeting. I'm sure you're a real legend where you come from!

    2. Have you got a cigarette, no i really do not smoke, its not very good for your health! Or if you are unfortunate enough to do so, sorry i have only enough to satisfy my own slavish addiction for nicotine.
    You don't live in the real world do you! 😵 Lemme guess everyone in the whole wide world is a nice person if you take the time to remove your top hat and converse with them at a level above their comprehension (you probably didn't spot the implication the hoodie was perhaps some poorly spoken chav up to no good)

    3. Child with the picture of cat, wow its shows real child like qualities, i like the colours, or the composition is good, did you draw that yourself! My god surely you can find something positive to say with resorting to lying!
    Yeah...a four year old understanding what you mean by "composition is good"!!! LMAO 😵 Oh and perhaps I don't like the colours!...kids want to know their efforts are awesome, they don't want a fricking critique!!!
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    23 Jan '11 19:041 edit
    Originally posted by Agerg
    1. pretentiousness, like you are supposed to entertain everyone you meet. why not honestly say look mate i am really tired any chance i can just chill!

    I see, so when you cross friends paths on the street you always give them the "p*ss off, I can't be ar$ed with you" greeting. I'm sure you're a real legend where you come from!

    2. Have you got
    Yeah...a four year old understanding what you mean by "composition is good"!!! LMAO
    1. i very rarely ever feel like i cannot be bothered, generally i have time for people, but just in case, next time ill carry my juggling balls so that when i met someone i can entertain them in the manner they have grown accustomed to.

    2. I am prepared to impute good motives to people, indeed i met a hooded chav on the street not so long ago, he was beaten up from having been drunk the day before and had been fighting, he asked me that very question, do you have a cigarette, to which i replied, sorry mate dont smoke, our conversation continued regardless!

    3, nothing positive, nothing at all you could find to say????? pathetic, they might not need a critique but its better than the lie!!
  12. Standard memberAgerg
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    23 Jan '11 19:193 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    1. i very rarely ever feel like i cannot be bothered, generally i have time for people, but just in case, next time ill carry my juggling balls so that when i met someone i can entertain them in the manner they have grown accustomed to.

    2. I am prepared to impute good motives to people, indeed i met a hooded chav on the street not so long ago, h ...[text shortened]... ou could find to say????? pathetic, they might not need a critique but its better than the lie!!
    1. i very rarely ever feel like i cannot be bothered, generally i have time for people, but just in case, next time ill carry my juggling balls so that when i met someone i can entertain them in the manner they have grown accustomed to.
    As per your challenge to my (1) you seem to be somewhat lacking in social skills Robbie. If someone asks you if you're ok it's not actually a request for information about your state of well being, it's a friendly pleasantry anticipating you'll acknowledge them with the same. If someone says
    Hi Robbie!...how you doing?
    then assuming you're not doing very well there are five cases:
    1) You treat the greeting in the spirit it was intended, tell them you're ok; and then request you go about your business, or let the small talk continue
    2) You ignore them so as not to put yourself in the awkward position of having to offend your god or lay all your troubles on their lap, suggesting to them you're p!ssed of with them for some unknown reason.
    3) You give them a matter of fact "no" and carry on walking, suggesting to them you're p!ssed of with them for some unknown reason
    4) You bore them to pieces with an account of your troubles
    5) You get your juggling balls out (your suggestion - not mine).

    2. I am prepared to impute good motives to people, indeed i met a hooded chav on the street not so long ago, he was beaten up from having been drunk the day before and had been fighting, he asked me that very question, do you have a cigarette, to which i replied, sorry mate dont smoke, our conversation continued regardless!
    You have so far been lucky; and foolish! Lots of nasty people out there - and next time they strike your god might be too busy to throw down a lightning bolt for you!

    3, nothing positive, nothing at all you could find to say????? pathetic, they might not need a critique but its better than the lie!!
    Of course there is something positive to say "wow that's a good picture!!!" Does me no harm, does the kid no harm, and it cost me absolutely nothing. Or perhaps your god is sitting up there on his clouds tutting, shaking his head, and stomping his chest that the smile induced on a young childs face came at the cost of a lie!
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    23 Jan '11 19:33
    Originally posted by Agerg
    [b]1. i very rarely ever feel like i cannot be bothered, generally i have time for people, but just in case, next time ill carry my juggling balls so that when i met someone i can entertain them in the manner they have grown accustomed to.
    As per your challenge to my (1) you seem to be somewhat lacking in social skills Robbie. If someone asks you if you' ...[text shortened]... ping his chest that the smile induced on a young childs face came at the cost of a lie![/b]
    Lacking in social skills? you mean like lying Agers, you bet!

    Generally when i meet someone who asks me, are you ok, i know them, very few strangers have ever asked me that question, with the exception of when i used to crash my motorcycle. You understand the concept of friends Agers?, mutual exchanges of information which is generally intended to be well received and reciprocated.

    I know there is many nasty people out there, i live in Glasgow, the knife capital of Europe, one of my friends is dead, having been killed violently, my brother was koshed over the head with an iron bar, i have been hit over the head with glass beer bottles. Never the less, it a friendly type of mentality that we have! It may be different where you live, i do not know.

    you do not need to lie about the picture, you could commend the child for their effort, at the very least!
  14. Standard memberAgerg
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    23 Jan '11 19:455 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Lacking in social skills? you mean like lying Agers, you bet!

    Generally when i meet someone who asks me, are you ok, i know them, very few strangers have ever asked me that question, with the exception of when i used to crash my motorcycle. You understand the concept of friends Agers?, mutual exchanges of information which is generally intende ...[text shortened]... need to lie about the picture, you could commend the child for their effort, at the very least!
    Lacking in social skills? you mean like lying Agers, you bet!

    Generally when i meet someone who asks me, are you ok, i know them, very few strangers have ever asked me that question, with the exception of when i used to crash my motorcycle. You understand the concept of friends Agers?, mutual exchanges of information which is generally intended to be well received and reciprocated.
    I presume then that in my example in the OP, the fact I was referred to via my first name by Dave doesn't register to you as a situation where we both know each other. Yes, perhaps I assume too much :]
    It's unfortunate you have little concept of social pleasantries - perhaps your "friends" are *always on their mobile* when you pass!

    I know there is many nasty people out there, i live in Glasgow, the knife capital of Europe, one of my friends is dead, having been killed violently, my brother was koshed over the head with an iron bar, i have been hit over the head with glass beer bottles. Never the less, it a friendly type of mentality that we have! It may be different where you live, i do not know.
    Yeah I live in crappy Longsight Manchester; and I'd rather play it safe and avoid getting stabbed than strike up conversations with every hoodlum invading my personal space. I don't believe in some Sky Gandalf waiting to back me up!

    you do not need to lie about the picture, you could commend the child for their effort, at the very least!
    What like: Oh, it seems from your statement you drew a cat, I'm supposed to think you tried to draw a cat - It may be the case you tried to do this!
    ? (note: I cannot assume he was actually *trying* to draw a cat when he started out - perhaps cat is the closest thing he can identify his scrawling with after the image is rendered - to say I commend his effort here would be a lie!)

    Come on jobsworth, at least tell me what is the actual underlying problem with telling a white lie in (3)! 😵
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    23 Jan '11 19:58
    There surely must be such a thing as a “white lie”.
    If we can show just one example of a white lie that is so extreme that none of us is willing to dispute it then, logically, we must all agree that lying is not always bad:

    If telling a little lie is the only way to trick a homicidal terrorist from pressing the red button on a doomsday machine that will destroy all life on Earth, then is there anyone here that would disagree that, if by telling him the lie that the machine isn't a doomsday machine but a dishwasher he would then not destroy all life, is a white lie?
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