Originally posted by Zahlanzi
so you see, you can help others. have you thought that this is god's plan? to help each other rather than wait for a supernatural being who will solve all our problems? humanity as a whole can solve all the problems. in time.

Utter nonsense. You and humanity and even God are incapable of turning back time and solving that problem I had last year.
Your as bad as another poster (I forget which) whose response to this topic is that God is solving all the problems and will be done at some future date.

god isn't a walking brace. at most he used to be an occasional stranger that would help you across the street in a particular busy intersection. now however, until further notice, we are supposed to cross the streets ourselves because we can.
That is not the issue. The issue is how he can stand by and let the old man get hit by a car.

some will still get run over. but this is better than having all stuff taken care of and having nothing left to live for. a perfect world where nothing happens because god takes care of it.
So you would be happy living in the worst possible world, because you would rather have that than have everything taken care of? How come the 'all or nothing' argument applies to God and not to you?
Why can you help someone without doing every possible thing for him, but God can't?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Utter nonsense. You and humanity and even God are incapable of turning back time and solving that problem I had last year.
Your as bad as another poster (I forget which) whose response to this topic is that God is solving all the problems and will be done at some future date.

[b]god isn't a walking brace. at most he used to be an occasional stranger t to you?
Why can you help someone without doing every possible thing for him, but God can't?

So you would be happy living in the worst possible world, because you would rather have that than have everything taken care of?
______________________________


here is the problem: you see this as the worst posible world, where as people of faith see it as the best possible world. It is your lack of objectivty that keeps you from seeing that. We welcome a world that offers challange to the human spirit, and offers opportuinity for the advancement of humankind. You think that if God exists he should hold your hand and make all the boo boo's go away.

Is that what your parents did? Did they coddle you so you wouldn't suffer? I think its likely, as sociologists and psychologists agree that our model for God (what we see in our head) is a mirror of our parents. This may not be the case, but guessing from your positions and sense of entitlement I bet I am right on the money.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Utter nonsense. You and humanity and even God are incapable of turning back time and solving that problem I had last year.
Your as bad as another poster (I forget which) whose response to this topic is that God is solving all the problems and will be done at some future date.

[b]god isn't a walking brace. at most he used to be an occasional stranger t ...[text shortened]... to you?
Why can you help someone without doing every possible thing for him, but God can't?

it would still be living. the worst possible world would be better than nothing happening at all. i could try and improve it. or die trying. if everything is taken care of, what else is there to do? this is an important factor why old people can't deal with retirement, and yet they still get to overcome some problems. imagine a world where everyone everywhere is living the life of a retired person, but without the memory of a lifetime of accomplishments.


"the problem you had last year"
did it kill you? if it did, did humanity end because of it? the purpose of each of us isn't to get to the finish line as happy as god can provide. it is the journey we take that is important. how we deal with stuff on the way. if the stuff is non-existent what will there be on the road? why the #$%^ must we take the journey in the first place if all of us arrive in the exact way.

where does god come into play you may ask if he is absent? well we believe he did cause the universe to happen. jews believe that he took them as a small scale project to see if humans could improve themselves. christians believe he sent his son (a part of him) to set an example. that is about it. now we mostly have all that we need to lead good lives. we are starting to control nature (and mess it up because we are greedy aholes). we cure diseases. we improve our lives each day. god isn't an ahole. god is just giving us some tough love.

the thing is, you are an atheist. you already see life as it is and try to make the best of it. and you can't accept why i do the exact same thing and "invent" a god that doesn't do anything for me. and you believe such a god would be borderline sadistic. to which i respond that a gift horse's mouth shall not be inspected. even if the donator of the horses is a wealthy horse breeder with infinity awesome horses.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
it would still be living. the worst possible world would be better than nothing happening at all. i could try and improve it.

But there is your basic contradiction. You are simultaneously saying you are in the best possible world, and that you desire to improve it. It is a contradiction you cannot escape.

or die trying.
Then what? You have not only failed but proven that the situation was not an opportunity for self improvement.

"the problem you had last year"
did it kill you? if it did, did humanity end because of it? the purpose of each of us isn't to get to the finish line as happy as god can provide. it is the journey we take that is important. how we deal with stuff on the way. if the stuff is non-existent what will there be on the road? why the #$%^ must we take the journey in the first place if all of us arrive in the exact way.
I would have preferred a journey without that problem I had last year. Nothing will turn back the time and change that. You may enjoy the pain and suffering but I sure hope you don't actually act the way you preach. After all you would stand by and let others suffer because you believe that their journey is what its all about.

now we mostly have all that we need to lead good lives.
A moment ago it was all about suffering not leading good lives. You just cant make up your mind can you?

the thing is, you are an atheist. you already see life as it is and try to make the best of it. and you can't accept why i do the exact same thing and "invent" a god that doesn't do anything for me. and you believe such a god would be borderline sadistic. to which i respond that a gift horse's mouth shall not be inspected. even if the donator of the horses is a wealthy horse breeder with infinity awesome horses.
So you don't like to question your delusions. OK. I get it now.
My advice is to stop trying to defend them because you know fully well that the gift horse has rotten teeth. By riding him around and entering horse shows, you just make yourself look the fool.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But there is your basic contradiction. You are simultaneously saying you are in the best possible world, and that you desire to improve it. It is a contradiction you cannot escape.

[b]or die trying.
Then what? You have not only failed but proven that the situation was not an opportunity for self improvement.

"the problem you had last year" ...[text shortened]... . By riding him around and entering horse shows, you just make yourself look the fool.

I am one Christian who is not trying to say the world.
The Son of God will take care of that.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I am one Christian who is not trying to say the world.
The Son of God will take care of that.

But Jesus spent most of his time preaching telling people to help each other. Do you disagree with Jesus?

Originally posted by twhitehead
But Jesus spent most of his time preaching telling people to help each other. Do you disagree with Jesus?

I have no disagreement with Jesus. He said the poor
will always be with us.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I have no disagreement with Jesus. He said the poor
will always be with us.

He also said you should help them. Instead, you are waiting for Jesus to help them.

In fact, Jesus said that the poor represent him, and that those that get into heaven will be those that helped the poor.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But there is your basic contradiction. You are simultaneously saying you are in the best possible world, and that you desire to improve it. It is a contradiction you cannot escape.

[b]or die trying.
Then what? You have not only failed but proven that the situation was not an opportunity for self improvement.

"the problem you had last year"
. By riding him around and entering horse shows, you just make yourself look the fool.

i am not saying i am in the best world. i am saying this is better than other possibilities.


You have not only failed but proven that the situation was not an opportunity for self improvement
humanity will move on without me/you. the important thing is that you leave something behind, preferably something useful. what do you want? cheat codes? save games? the game of life is not played like that.

I would have preferred a journey without that problem I had last year. Nothing will turn back the time and change that.
i would have prefered wwII not to have happened but it did. i am glad that in the end, the better ideology prevailed rather than aliens swooping down and removing all nazis from existence.

After all you would stand by and let others suffer because you believe that their journey is what its all about.
yes, this is a manner of arguing quite often encountered in these forums. strawman, you must be familiar with it. why should you be any different. you took what i said and twisted it, and added some inventions of your own. i said i wouldn't want a supernatural being fixing all my problems, all the time. i am perfectly fine with a friend helping me out. in turn i would help him out as well. after all, this is how humanity survived, through cooperation.

A moment ago it was all about suffering not leading good lives
are you insane? suffering just happens. you get over it. if it would be about suffering, i wouldn't support us getting over it. i am not against solving of suffering. i am against a supernatural being solving it for us and thus rendering us dependent on it.

My advice is to stop trying to defend them because you know fully well that the gift horse has rotten teeth. By riding him around and entering horse shows, you just make yourself look the fool
well if i ever should find you drowning in a lake, i would still save you, even if afterwards i won't be able to give you a ferrari, a mansion in tahiti and one in the alps, a helicopter, perfect health, immortality and buletproof skin. i would just save you.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I am one Christian who is not trying to say the world.
The Son of God will take care of that.

that is stupid. jesus came and set an example. you should try and save the world even if you aren't able. because through more and more people trying, the world gets better.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
i am not saying i am in the best world. i am saying this is better than other possibilities.

Please explain how that is not a contradiction?

humanity will move on without me/you.
So its not about improving you and me, its about improving humanity?

the important thing is that you leave something behind, preferably something useful. what do you want? cheat codes? save games? the game of life is not played like that.
I am not particularly interested in leaving something behind, nor do I think it is a particularly important moral goal. I do not think me leaving something behind morally counters my suffering.

yes, this is a manner of arguing quite often encountered in these forums. strawman, you must be familiar with it. why should you be any different. you took what i said and twisted it, and added some inventions of your own. i said i wouldn't want a supernatural being fixing all my problems, all the time. i am perfectly fine with a friend helping me out. in turn i would help him out as well. after all, this is how humanity survived, through cooperation.
You clearly missed the point.
I am not arguing with your claim that you "wouldn't want a supernatural being fixing all my problems, all the time", I am arguing with your claim that if God fixes one of your problems then he is forced to fix all of them so you would rather have none fixed.
I am asking you to explain why the same logic does not apply to you helping someone else or being helped by someone other than God.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I have no disagreement with Jesus. He said the poor
will always be with us.

"what you have done to the least of these my brethren you have done to me also"

good luck with your philosophy RJ, pretty sure Christ disagrees with you.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Please explain how that is not a contradiction?

[b]humanity will move on without me/you.
So its not about improving you and me, its about improving humanity?

the important thing is that you leave something behind, preferably something useful. what do you want? cheat codes? save games? the game of life is not played like that.
I am not p ...[text shortened]... logic does not apply to you helping someone else or being helped by someone other than God.[/b]

you wouldn't find it morally questionable that god fixes one problem but leaves 10 others unsolved? he has infinite power after all. and it can be argued that he did solve the problem of "the universe not existing". and you want that he fixes more. therefore it stands to reason that, should he want your approval that he is a just god that he fix all the problems. and therefore all humans will have plenty of time to just sit back and relax?


what is a contradiction? that a life of pain is better than a uniform life of nothingness? would you say that it would be preferable if god makes us immortal and suspends us in the void of space? there would be no more problems then. you would have no pain. just an eternity of drifting into space, nothing to do and definetely no children dying of hunger or wars.

I am not particularly interested in leaving something behind, nor do I think it is a particularly important moral goal
yet you consider me the morally abject one. it is a little funny.


god is not a part of the human race. god is not a participant in the game of life. humans are. therefore you as human are required to behave like the social animal that you are and contribute to society (else you get kicked out of it). it is ok for you to help your fellow man because that is how problems do get solved.

god is waiting at the finish line. my belief. do you feel offended because i can't and won't prove it?



the above was as a response to your response to my response.

let's look at it from a different perspective. god is not coming. whether it is because he doesn't exist or is less than omni-benevolent, not really important. you and me and the rest of humanity is alone.(not counting possible aliens yet). Does it comfort you to call a father figure that doesn't come when you get an owie a jerk? a father figure you don't believe in in the first place? i am more comforted by the belief the father figure roots for me and gets sad when iam sad and happy when i am happy. i don't think i have ever seen a father replace his 10 year old son in a football match just because the child is tired and can't go on.