Originally posted by sonship
[b] No knock down drag out at all, just a discussion. Of all the folks in this forum I thought you would be one of those at the top of the list that would be interested in the conversation... apparently I am wrong. Perhaps this is not the place for such things.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...[text shortened]... y on the archaeology.
What is the Wailing Wall a remainder of from 1rst century CE ?[/b]
I thought that the Wailing Wall was a "left standing" portion of the temple.
That is why I specified that Christ's prophecy says that the things they SAW would be totally thrown down, stone by stone. If that was a part of the temple that they did not SEE then perhaps that is how some stones of it were left standing.
I am rusty on the archaeology.
What is the Wailing Wall a remainder of from 1rst century CE ?[/b]
Ok, I sense some sarcasm in your response, so be it.
Let's call the thread an investigation and a search for the truth, there is no doubt that it will go into all different directions as threads frequently do. I will present some information that I have come across, take a look at it and lets talk about it and you can decide. If your interest is piqued, great it's what I am trying to do... in the least we will gain some additional knowledge we didn't have prior and maybe spark curiosity.
Michael Avi-Yonah
Israeli Archeologist
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Avi-Yonah
Avi-Yonah was a well respect archeologist in Israel and one of his more notable achievements was the construction of the model of what Jerusalem looked like some 2,000 years ago... which BTW is in Jerusalem. I have seen it myself and it is quiet spectacular, but is it accurate?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holyland_Model_of_Jerusalem
Wikipedia asserts that the information that went into the design of the Jerusalem model was taken from the writings of Flavius Josephus and other sources (which are not given). I think we all know by now that Wikipedia is not 100% accurate but it is for the purpose of this argument. There is no doubt that the model is well thought out and much went into it's design. Measurements, colors, heights, period structures are all a part of what make up the model and contribute to it's beauty. Speaking to the Western Wall... while it is true that there is a Western Wall, is it equally true that the Western Wall was a part of the 2nd Jewish Temple? I have read many books over the years that support this theory but there are few that agree with the configuration and it's placement on what is called the temple mount. The jury is still out.
Matthew 24:1-2 English Standard Version (ESV)
Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple
24 Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”
I don't not believe that when Jesus was asking the disciples "You see all these" that he was referring to what the eye could physically see (as you would suggest) at the moment, but was talking about all of it and what made it all (the temple and all of it's buildings, even those obstructed to the eye) Jesus was talking about the temple.
So, at this point you have to be fair and ask, what was Jesus saying with regards to the temple and buildings and " there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down"? Is it some of it or all of it? Flavius Josephus was an eye witness and historian to this event, the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, and he records in his writings 'The War of the Jews'.
If Flavius Josephus is correct then the Western Wall most likely was not a part of the Jewish temple that was destroyed in 70AD as come to be the common belief. I do realize that statement alone will mess with a lot of peoples beliefs but it shouldn't if your looking for the truth.
Question: Why is it believed that the Western Wall is a part of the destroyed Jewish Temple? I think the answer has a lot to do with Avi-Yonah's model of 2,000 year old Jerusalem. Remember that I said (Wikipedia) his model was based on Josephus' writings and other unnamed sources? The problem is Josephus' eyewitness account and dimensions of the temple and where it was positioned do not match Avi-Yonah's dimensions and how he placed it in his model. Imagine, if Josephus is correct, the Western Wall as a part of the destroyed Jewish temple has got to be one of the biggest deceptions in human kind. According to Josephus measurements, the temple is clearly not a part of the temple mount and Western Wall.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/history/flavius-josephus/war-of-the-jews/book-5/chapter-5.html
If you are interested, you can watch this documentary on the temple and its location which is very compelling and talks in depth about Avi-Yonah. I did have a thread on this awhile back and there was not much interest, perhaps that changed.
YouTube
The video in it's entirety can be found on Amazon and Netflix, when I watched it there was no cost.
Let's see where this takes us.