Matthew 24

Originally posted by Rajk999
After waiting for 2000 yrs when Jesus left saying he will return soon, one has to begin to wonder if there must be something about the return of Christ that Christians are not considering. It is within the realm of possibility that He is already here. One such sign is the unpresendented and unmatched advance in many aspects of life on earth in the last 50/60 ...[text shortened]... rue that Jesus is here then how come you are not among the chosen saints ... thats your problem.

Just out of curiosity, have you watched the video?

Originally posted by yoctobyte
Just out of curiosity, have you watched the video?

I am going to watch about 10 - 15 mins of it.

Originally posted by sonship
I am going to watch about 10 - 15 mins of it.

Why not watch the whole thing. You are one of the more prolific posters here and I am interested in your thoughts, but I am afraid 10-15 min would not even be scratching the surface on what is being discussed.

Originally posted by yoctobyte
Why not watch the whole thing. You are one of the more prolific posters here and I am interested in your thoughts, but I am afraid 10-15 min would not even be scratching the surface on what is being discussed.

I watched up to 17 minutes.
I took note that he has written a book called Raptureless which title sounds to me is somewhat self indicating he's views. And I would consider Raptureless as a step backwards rather than forward in understanding eschatology.

i follow Brothers Watchman Nee and Witness Lee on things pertaining to the second coming. And to some degree they built upon very good end time teachings of Robert Govette and D.M. Panton and G.H. Pember.

i'll watch about 10 more minutes today.
i get an idea of his concerns. He has a good heart and means well so far.

Originally posted by sonship
I watched up to 17 minutes.
I took note that he has written a book called [b]Raptureless which title sounds to me is somewhat self indicating he's views. And I would consider Raptureless as a step backwards rather than forward in understanding eschatology.

i follow Brothers Watchman Nee and Witness Lee on things pertaining to the ...[text shortened]... 0 more minutes today.
i get an idea of his concerns. He has a good heart and means well so far.[/b]

I am not familiar with Nee and Lee aside from you mentioning them on occasion in different threads, and I never heard of the other guys. However a quick check tells me they are circa 1800's folks, not that that matters.

i follow Brothers Watchman Nee and Witness Lee on things pertaining to the second coming.

Does that mean you can't / won't take in a talk or discussion from someone else unaffiliated with your denomination on things like the second coming?

I am not familiar with Nee and Lee aside from you mentioning them on occasion in different threads, and I never heard of the other guys.

I would say that to understand well Watchman Nee and Witness Lee you first should be able to know what and where in the Holy Bible what is being discussed. There is no need to mention per se Lee or Nee if you know the Bible well.

For the points raised by these brothers are found in the Scripture. To the question "Well, WHY does he say that ?" The answer is "Its right there in the Bible. Look at it again carefully."

That was my experience.

However a quick check tells me they are circa 1800's folks, not that that matters.

Lee went to be with the Lord in 1997. Nee died in a Communist prison camp in China in the early mid 1970s.

Does that mean you can't / won't take in a talk or discussion from someone else unaffiliated with your denomination on things like the second coming?

I do not have a denomination. That is the biggest contribution these servants of the Lord left us - a way out of the denominational mess back to the normal Christian church life based on locality - the local churches.

I read and listen to other Christian speakers. I get help from them too. A two hour lecture is a bit long for this week.
I need time if you really want me to critique the whole video.

I have to suspend talking for over an hour. I will try to oblige you more so we can have some mutual talk about your subject here.

Originally posted by sonship
I have to suspend talking for over an hour. I will try to oblige you more so we can have some mutual talk about your subject here.

You don't need to do anything that you don't want to, but I do find it difficult to discuss a thing with someone when both parties are not on the same page. As I said before, I am content to let the thread die, it seems to have become more work than I intended.

Originally posted by Rajk999
After waiting for 2000 yrs when Jesus left saying he will return soon, one has to begin to wonder if there must be something about the return of Christ that Christians are not considering. It is within the realm of possibility that He is already here. One such sign is the unpresendented and unmatched advance in many aspects of life on earth in the last 50/60 ...[text shortened]... rue that Jesus is here then how come you are not among the chosen saints ... thats your problem.

And your problem seems to be that you don't put much stock in parts of the Bible that don't support your "salvation-through-works" scenario.

Originally posted by yoctobyte
Just out of curiosity, have you watched the video?

No. Is this the first time you have come across someone making a claim that Christ may already have returned a second time?

Originally posted by Rajk999
No. Is this the first time you have come across someone making a claim that Christ may already have returned a second time?

It's the first time I have seen this from that perspective as it is taught in the video.

Originally posted by yoctobyte
It's the first time I have seen this from that perspective as it is taught in the video.

I took note of some of the things said.

The man is trying to propose a more simple and direct way for the Christians to go on.
He believes that the debates are confusing, which they are.
He has confidence that his approach is more straightforward.

I need something specific to remark about.

This may help. God is growing a crop on the earth. It is not a crop of barley or corn or wheat. It is a crop of Christ in people. God is growing a crop of Jesus Christ in His receivable form growing in His people.

The church is like a farm on the earth in which over the last centuries since His resurrection and ascension Christ has been growing Himself within people. Here and there some have matured. But a large scale maturity has never yet been. In these last days He will obtain a critical mass of mature ones. That is Christ grown in them and building them also together.

When He reaches a certain critical mass and a point of a mature crop He will reap a harvest. He will reap from the earth first the early ripe portion of His crop and then the major portion of His ripened crop.

In one chapter to see this best you should go through Revelation 14. Notice that the crop on earth is divided into at least two main sections -

Firstfruits
Harvest

In that chapter notice also the events that transpire BETWEEN the taking of the early crop - the Firstfruits and the taking of the Harvest. Notice what things happen in-between those to reapings.

I would suggest that Revelation chapter 14[/b] is a very good place to get a good basic overview of the major events of the Lord's coming and reaping of His crop of Christ in His people on earth.

This is brief but specific. It may touch some of the issues that i did not yet see on your video.

Originally posted by yoctobyte
It's the first time I have seen this from that perspective as it is taught in the video.

Well I have read hundreds of interpretations and predictions of all kinds from all religions and interested parties, during the last 50 years. None .. not one single solitary one has come to pass when they said it will. What should be obvious is that it makes no difference, it is of no value, it is of no virtue to know when Jesus will return. The mistake the Christian community makes is that they interpret the word 'watch' by Jesus to mean that they must try to predict the signs of the times. Jesus said:

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. (Matthew 24:42-44 KJV)

Jesus is saying to be ready for Him. If people pursued the concept of 'readiness for Christ' with the same zeal as 'predicting His return' or other matters pertaining to His return, then they would be in a far better position when He actually does return. But the world is not doing that. They are doing everything in the Bible except getting 'ready for Christ'.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Well I have read hundreds of interpretations and predictions of all kinds from all religions and interested parties, during the last 50 years. None .. not one single solitary one has come to pass when they said it will. What should be obvious is that it makes no difference, it is of no value, it is of no virtue to know when Jesus will return. The mistake the ...[text shortened]... rld is not doing that. They are doing everything in the Bible except getting 'ready for Christ'.

No thanks to you - constantly hounding believers that they haven't even started living with Christ yet.

Originally posted by yoctobyte
Mr. Welton has also written a book which a lot of the video covers and can be downloaded for free...

https://weltonacademy.com/collections/products/products/raptureless-first-edition-free-download

... if there is interest.

I did go download this book, and I will attempt to read the actual words of what he has to say. I'm not liking what the forwards to this book say about "fear-based theology" and worse. I'm hoping this is not just a "feel-good" version of what is clear in Thessalonians and Matthew and Daniel and Revelation. I'm just not buying into his premise that fear is keeping us from Jesus. But I'll give him a fair reading to see what he has to say.