10 Jul 16
Originally posted by SuzianneHave you watched the video
The only things I see 'coming and going' are the specific date-centered predictions. Predictions are easy, anyone can make a prediction. Prophecy is another story, it is given of God. The foretold events in the Bible can be treated like any other passages, some get it right, some get it wrong and this often marks the differences between denominations. I ...[text shortened]... make the wrong choices, and at a time when our choices will either save our souls or condemn us.
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13 Jul 16
Yoctobyte, You know that Christ is returning for a corporate entity which the Bible calls the Bride. This Bride must be a mature corporate woman. A youngster or a teenager will not do.
So spiritually the more important "sign" of Christ's soon appearing again is the maturing of at least a critical mass of believers across the earth to if a maturity which will "woo" the Bridegroom back.
We can consider all the things of dealing with Antichrist and his armies as a newlywed couple taking out the garbage. The main thing is their enjoyment of one another.
Originally posted by sonshipLets see how much of that is in the Bible?
Yoctobyte, You know that Christ is returning for a corporate entity which the Bible calls the Bride. This Bride must be a mature corporate woman. A youngster or a teenager will not do.
So spiritually the more important "sign" of Christ's soon appearing again is the maturing of at least a critical mass of believers across the earth to if a maturity whic ...[text shortened]... s as a newlywed couple taking out the garbage. The main thing is their enjoyment of one another.
Christ is returning for a corporate entity
Not in the Bible
which the Bible calls the Bride.
Wrong. the bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem as clearly stated in Revelation. The saints are called THE BODY OF CHRIST.
This Bride must be a mature corporate woman. A youngster or a teenager will not do.
No such thing in the Bible
So spiritually the more important "sign" of Christ's soon appearing again is the maturing of at least a critical mass of believers across the earth to if a maturity which will "woo" the Bridegroom back.
Nonsense. The state of the earth has nothing to do with wooing Christ .. what garbage !! In fact if anything the opposite is the case as Jesus stated : Luke 18:8 ... when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? Jesus is not expecting to find faith on earth at this return and neither is he waiting for any critical mass.
We can consider all the things of dealing with Antichrist and his armies as a newlywed couple taking out the garbage. The main thing is their enjoyment of one another.
What ??
Well nothing you ever say is from Christ so why start following Christ now .. carry on with your false doctrines.
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14 Jul 16
Originally posted by Rajk999In the book of Revelation, the bride of Christ is specifically identified as the New Jerusalem.
Lets see how much of that is in the Bible?
Christ is returning for a corporate entity
[b]Not in the Bible
which the Bible calls the Bride.
Wrong. the bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem as clearly stated in Revelation. The saints are called THE BODY OF CHRIST.
[i]This Bride must be a mature corporate woman. A youngster ...[text shortened]... ever say is from Christ so why start following Christ now .. carry on with your false doctrines.[/b]
Revelation 21:9-11
(9) One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
(10) And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.
(11) It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.
The text refers to the New Jerusalem as both the “bride” and “wife” of Christ. Of course, the wife of Christ is not the city, but the city figuratively represents all the people who live there. Thus, in the book of Revelation we see that the wife of Christ is neither Israel nor the Christian Church, but rather is every saved person who has ever lived, all of whom will live eternally in the New Jerusalem.
Portraying all the saved people as the wife of Christ shows us the love and devotion that will exist into eternity between Christ and the people he died for. Also, we must recall that the Old Testament prophecies foretold that God would also be married to these saved people, and as God’s wife they would also give Him the love and devotion that He deserves forever and ever.
http://www.truthortradition.com/articles/who-is-the-bride-of-christ
14 Jul 16
Originally posted by checkbaiterWell that is one interpretation, to which you are entitiled, but that is not what the Bible says.
In the book of Revelation, the bride of Christ is specifically identified as the New Jerusalem.
Revelation 21:9-11
(9) One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
(10) And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great a ...[text shortened]... eserves forever and ever.
http://www.truthortradition.com/articles/who-is-the-bride-of-christ
The 'body of Christ' is the saints or the church. These people are already one with Christ and one with God. The saints dont 'marry' Christ as they are already 'one with Christ' through baptism and through the following of his commandments. They are one with Christ even as God and Christ are one. Neither are the saints invited to the wedding feast of the Lamb to 'marry' the Lamb but to witness the wedding of Christ and his bride which is the New Jerusalem. Whether figuratively or otherwise it is not a sound interpretation
The Bible has given far too much detailed descriptions of the New Jerusalem for it to be simply dismissed as figuratively anything.
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14 Jul 16
6 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999
Lets see how much of that is in the Bible?
me:
Christ is returning for a corporate entity
Rajk999:
Not in the Bible
You have never heard of the book Ephesians ?
" Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her." (Eph. 5:21)
Did you see that blind one ? Christ died for the church. He gave up His life for "the church". That is a corporate entity. Did Christ die for the sinner individually? Yes indeed He did. " ... the Son of God who loved ME and gave Himself for me" (Gal. 2:20) .
But on a broader level He gave Himself up for "the church" (Eph. 5:25) And He comes again for the church. That is why the next verse says -
"That He might sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing of the water in the word, that He might present the church to Himself glorious, not having spot or wrinkle or any such things, but that she would be holy and without blemish." (vs.26,27)
You need to go to www.ministrybooks.org and read the book The Glorious Church by Watchman Nee. Yet other books could help you on this as well. But that one very much so.
Rajk999 there comes a time when a man needs to humble himself and learn something.
which the Bible calls the Bride.
Wrong. the bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem as clearly stated in Revelation. The saints are called THE BODY OF CHRIST.
the new Jerusalem in Revelation is the enlarged church which is revealed in Ephesians. The consummate New Jerusalem will include BOTH the Old Testament saints and the New Testament saints.
But since the church is the wife of the Husband Christ in Ephesians we know that she had to be a Bride before she can be a Wife.
in fact when Jesus' disciples began to grow in number, and when the disciples of John the Baptist began to leave him in order to follow Jesus. John the Baptist indicated that this was the increase of Christ as His bride.
John the Baptist says:
" You yourselves testify of me that I said, I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before Him. He who has the BRIDE is the BRIDEGROOM; but the friend of the BRIDEGROOM, who stands and hears him, rejoices with joy because of the BRIDEGROOM'S [Christ's] voice.
This joy of mine therefore is made full. He must increase and I must decrease." (John 3:28-30)
The Bride is the increase of people TO Christ the BRIDEGROOM.
me:
This Bride must be a mature corporate woman. A youngster or a teenager will not do.
No such thing in the Bible
So spiritually the more important "sign" of Christ's soon appearing again is the maturing of at least a critical mass of believers across the earth to if a maturity which will "woo" the Bridegroom back.
Rajk999
Nonsense. The state of the earth has nothing to do with wooing Christ .
I did not say the state of the earth blind one. I said the maturity of bride. The EKKLESIA is the CALLED OUT assembly - the church. Christ sanctifies her to be able to present her to Himself Ephesians 5.
You need to take a few days and read The Glorious Church by Watchman Nee. Other books could be of great help as well. But this life changing one is one of the bests on the subject compiled in the last one hundred years.
The Glorious Church (table of contents) by Watchman Nee
http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=18AF40
You do not understand nearly as much as you imagine you do.
. what garbage !! In fact if anything the opposite is the case as Jesus stated : Luke 18:8 ... when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? Jesus is not expecting to find faith on earth at this return and neither is he waiting for any critical mass.
Blind ignoramus. There is the world and there is that entity called OUT of the world on the earth - the church.
me:
We can consider all the things of dealing with Antichrist and his armies as a newlywed couple taking out the garbage. The main thing is their enjoyment of one another.
What ??
Don't read Revelation 19. Maybe I would do better with you if I told you NOT to read something.
There's nothing else here worth dignifying. I am going now to have some talk with checkbaiter who is more conversant on these elementary matters at least.
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14 Jul 16
8 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiterCheckbaiter, You understand more than Rajk999. But I have some comments.
In the book of Revelation, the bride of Christ is specifically identified as the New Jerusalem.
This is good so far. Amen!
Revelation 21:9-11
(9) One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
(10) And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.
(11) It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.
The text refers to the New Jerusalem as both the “bride” and “wife” of Christ. Of course, the wife of Christ is not the city, but the city figuratively represents all the people who live there.
This also is good. Now we have some trouble coming though.
Thus, in the book of Revelation we see that the wife of Christ is neither Israel nor the Christian Church, but rather is every saved person who has ever lived, all of whom will live eternally in the New Jerusalem.
There is no need for the word "rather". The final consummate New Jerusalem is composed of both the Old Testament saints justified by God and the New Testament saints justified by God.
The twelve foundations of this sign have the names of the twelve apostles of the church. And the twelve gates of this sign have the twelves names of the twelve tribes of Israel.
"And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of twelve apostles of the Lamb." (Rev. 21:14)
'It had a great and high wall and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names inscribed, which are the names of the twelve tribes of Israel ..." (v.12)
These represent that saints of the new covenant and the saints of the old covenant together in one eternal corporate city and living temple of God.
Portraying all the saved people as the wife of Christ shows us the love and devotion that will exist into eternity between Christ and the people he died for.
The Old Testament saints TOO were under the love and devotion of Christ. Christ is God incarnate - God become a man.
Matthew 23:37
A. Jerusalem Killing the Prophets
Verse 37 says, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!” Jerusalem and her children were chosen by God to fulfill His purpose. However, when God sent His prophets to them, they killed them.
B. The Lord as a
Hen
Desiring to Gather Her Children
Together under Her Wings
Verse 37 also says, “How often I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her young under her wings, and you would not!” It has always been God Himself who cared for Jerusalem, like a bird fluttering over her young (Isa. 31:5; Deut. 32:11-12). Hence, when the Lord Jesus said, “I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her young under her wings,” He indicated that He was God Himself. The Lord is like a loving bird, fluttering, brooding, over her young. Often He desired to gather the children of Jerusalem together, but they were not willing. As the Lord Jesus was declaring this final word to them, He was still like a loving hen, stretching out His wings to brood over the little ones. But they were not willing to be gathered under His wings.
Also, we must recall that the Old Testament prophecies foretold that God would also be married to these saved people, and as God’s wife they would also give Him the love and devotion that He deserves forever and ever.
From The Life Study of Matthew by Witness Lee,
(Chapter 60, Section 4) (my bolding)
http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=16A94402C8
14 Jul 16
Originally posted by sonshipIts your funeral if you choose to brown-nose Witness Lee and his books, rather that see what the Bible says very clearly.Lets see how much of that is in the Bible?
me:
Christ is returning for a corporate entity
Rajk999:
Not in the Bible
You have never heard of the book [b]Ephesians ?
" Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her." (Eph. 5:21)
Did you see that blind ...[text shortened]... to have some talk with checkbaiter who is more conversant on these elementary matters at least.[/b]
The body of Christ and the bride of Christ are two different things.
The body is the church or the saints... clearly stated by Paul many times
The bride is the New Jerusalem.. clearly stated in Revelation 21.
Paul in Ephesians never says that the wife of Christ is the church. Paul is telling husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church. You have to be a complete idiot to think that that passage says that the wife of Christ is the church.
Further to demonstrate that your or rather Witless Lees interpretation is total nonsense, Rev 21 speaks of the saints entering the New Jerusalem. Are the saints/church entering themselves? The body of Christ/the righteous saints enters the New Jerusalem which Christ has prepared for them.
Christ left the saints to go to prepare a place for them, the New Jerusalem. This is the city spoken of in Hebrews.
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14 Jul 16
Originally posted by sonship
Checkbaiter, You understand more than Rajk999. But I have some comments.
[b]In the book of Revelation, the bride of Christ is specifically identified as the New Jerusalem.
This is good so far. Amen!
[quote]
Revelation 21:9-11
(9) One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came an ...[text shortened]... ection 4) (my bolding)
http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=16A94402C8[/b]There is no need for the word "rather". The final consummate New Jerusalem is composed of both the Old Testament saints justified by God and the New Testament saints justified by God.
I don't see what difference it makes... To me it means the same thing
The Old Testament saints TOO were under the love and devotion of Christ. Christ is God incarnate - God become a man
I disagree of course. More accurately, The old Testament saints were under the love and devotion of God and were saved " looking forward" to the Christ yet to come. They were saved by their faith looking forward to the yet unborn Messiah.
14 Jul 16
2 edits
Here the difference between the New Jerusalem and the saints/church is made clear:
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. (Revelation 19:7-9 KJV)
[b] Two points :
1. The wife = New Jerusalem is arrayed in the righteousness of the saints. In other words the saints adorn the bride/wife/New Jerusalem.
2. The saints are called to the marriage supper of Christ. They are NOT marrying Christ... just called to the feast.
The body of Christ is NOT the same as the bride of Christ.
14 Jul 16
And again even when Jesus gives the parables it is clear that the saints are invited guests to a marriage feast and not a bride:
The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. (Matthew 22:2-4 KJV)
Called to the wedding feast as a guest.
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14 Jul 16
7 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiter
I don't see what difference it makes... To me it means the same thing
I see. Well, let me try to clarify.
The New Jerusalem is what the believers are becoming. All who have received the divine life of God are in the process of becoming New Jerusalem.
The church universal contains every person who is becoming New Jerusalem.
Rather than a place to which we Christians are going it is the church into which we are (or should be) growing. The church is New Jerusalem in the making.
The seven golden lampstands in Revelation 2 and 3 become the grand lampstand of the New Jerusalem. New Jerusalem is a lampstand of consummate and culmination.
Hebrews is written to the New Testament Christians. Specifically it was written to Jewish disciples of Jesus - saints probably in the city of Jerusalem. In that letter it says that they HAVE COME to the heavenly Jerusalem -
" But you have come forward to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem; and to myriads of angels, to the universal gathering, and to the church of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens;
and to God the Judge of all;
and to the spirits of righteous men who have been made perfect;
and to Jesus, the Mediator of a new covenant;
and to the blood of sprinkling,
which speaks something better than that of Abel." (Hebrews 12:22-24)
As you can see coming to the heavenly Jerusalem is also coming to "the church of the firstborn". The new covenant church of the firstborn is therefore also New Jerusalem is its process of becoming fully manifest.
me:
The Old Testament saints TOO were under the love and devotion of Christ. Christ is God incarnate - God become a man
checbaiter:
I disagree of course. More accurately, The old Testament saints were under the love and devotion of God and were saved " looking forward" to the Christ yet to come. They were saved by their faith looking forward to the yet unborn Messiah.
I agree that they were looking forward to Messiah. But Messiah is God incarnate.
So then you are completely ignoring Matthew 23:37. I am sorry but Matthew 23:37 says what it says. But you seem to choose to completely ignore it.
It is Christ Who says:
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her young under her wings, and you would not!”
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14 Jul 16
I agree that they were looking forward to Messiah. But Messiah is God incarnate.
So then you are completely ignoring Matthew 23:37. I am sorry but Matthew 23:37 says what it says. But you seem to choose to completely ignore it.
What am I ignoring? You think what Jesus is saying makes him God? Could this have not been a prophecy? Why do you Trinitarians jump at every word trying to make Jesus God? Why is this such an aggressive part of your doctrine?
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and mankind, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all—the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a herald and an apostle (I speak the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in trust and truth.1Tim 2:5
Jesus has a God. Jesus is a man. If Jesus was God, this would have been a wonderful place to say it plainly, but it does not!
What it says instead, Jesus is stated to be a member of the human race, just as the Old Testament prophecies foretold he would be.
Nowhere does the bible say he became a man and then he became God again unless we brutally twist the word of God to suit a biased belief.
14 Jul 16
Originally posted by checkbaiterHe has already said that anyone who does not believe that Jesus is God is not his brother in Christ.
[b]
I agree that they were looking forward to Messiah. But Messiah is God incarnate.
So then you are completely ignoring Matthew 23:37. I am sorry but Matthew 23:37 says what it says. But you seem to choose to completely ignore it.
What am I ignoring? You think what Jesus is saying makes him God? Could this have not been a prophecy? Why do you ...[text shortened]... n and then he became God again unless we brutally twist the word of God to suit a biased belief.[/b]