Matthew 28:18

Originally posted by Suzianne
You're a user, plain and simple, using people for your own ends, which are despicable.

I have used no one and I resent your vile insinuations. I receive challenges. I evaluate those challenges to determine whether they are beneficial for my players. My players trust me and I trust them. We are one. So far we are fairly successful having lost a relatively minimal amount of challenges due to certain parameters beyond my control. We will not be moralised over by caustic and embittered looooooosers like you. We play to win the game!

YouTube : play to win the game

Originally posted by robbie carrobie

Don't get your posters mixed up.
No, I do not trust the New Word Translation. It was RJHinds who made some criticisms about it.

I took as an issue the shortsightedness of not seeing that Jesus Christ is God and the created man in one Person. I was the one who cautioned that the orthodox Christians must be careful not to go overboard.

Christ is God and Christ is man. As God He is UNCREATED. Yet MAN is indeed an item of CREATION - God created man (Genesis 1:26,27) .

In defending against false teachings that Christ is not God but was the first created being the Christians should be careful that they do not object to the truth that MAN was created, and God became a man. This is the essence of incarnation.

Your specific issue about the New Word Translation I have not given thought to. The inward feeling of bringing a NWT into my home is similar to the sickly feeling I get in bringing a crucifix with an image of a man on it. Or it has been similar to a nauseating superstitious feeling I would from owning a colorful statue of the VIrgin Mary. Yuck !

You may think I am trying to insult you. I am not trying to make you feel bad. I think honestly that the Holy Spirit within seems grieved when I open up that NWT. And I am told not to grieve the Holy Spirit of God.

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed unto the day of redemption." (Eph. 4:30)

Briefly, many English translation have a way of distinguishing the supplied words used to make the Greek into smooth English from the Greek words. My favorite version The Recovery Version uses italics by which the reader can see the supplied words from those strictly in the Greek text.

You should go BACK to the 1901 American Standard Bible - even the one published by the Watchtower Society. I OWN one of them. I used to have two. But I can no longer find one.

Your organization was better off with the 1901 ASV which they used to publish and distribute. That is all I can say in this post before I look back at the specfics.

Originally posted by sonship
Don't get your posters mixed up.
No, I do not trust the New Word Translation. It was RJHinds who made some criticisms about it.

I took as an issue the shortsightedness of not seeing that Jesus Christ is God and the created man in one Person. I was the one who cautioned that the orthodox Christians must be careful not to go overboard.

Christ ...[text shortened]... o publish and distribute. That is all I can say in this post before I look back at the specfics.

The Bible states that Jesus is the first-born of all creation, you are saying that he is not created, either I believe you or I believe the Bibles clear teaching that Jesus was of the creation and a created entity. Its really quite a simple matter.

Again we have already observed that you have no way of knowing what an accurate translation is and what is not, you are therefore unqualified to give anyone any advice, especially an organisation as successful as Jehovahs Witnesses.

You have a bias against the New world translation because you do not want to believe what it states. I am reminded of the victory parade where the Romans used to parade their captured victims before the people. Paul mentions the practice in this verse hear,

'To the one we are an aroma that brings death; to the other, an aroma that brings life.' 2 Corinthians 2:16 - NIV

Yes indeed that is the reason you cannot bring A New world translation of the Holy Scriptures into your home, to you the word of truth is not a sweet smelling odour, but an odour leading to death. To people like me who were unprejudiced, its was an odour leading to life.

Originally posted by sonship
In correcting a heretical teaching it is important that you do not introduce another. One has to be careful.

This is a section where Jesus is described as being the creator of all things. Since the Jehovah's Witness organization believes that Jesus is created, they have inserted the word "other" to show that Jesus was before all "other" things an ...[text shortened]... - Christ and the church are one; Christ by His death has become the life of His people.

I believe I understand what you are saying, but we must understand these scriptures (Coloaaians 1:15-22) in the right context.

Your idea of Jesus as the God/man comes primarily from John 1 in which the WORD that was in the beginning with GOD is identified as GOD that became flesh as the only begotten creation of GOD the Father.

It is in that sense that Jesus, the man, is the firstborn of all creation of GOD, but not the first creation of GOD. For Jesus, the man, did not exisit in the beginning as we can see from Genesis 1, because the first man was Adam.

Colossians 1:16 switches from talking about Jesus, the man, to HIM as the uncreated WORD that was with GOD in the beginning and was GOD.

The JWs will easily accept Jesus as a created man or even an angel, but they will not accept Him as the uncreated GOD that is BEFORE ALL creation.

Colossians 1:15-22 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—

HalleluYaH !!!
Praise the LORD!
Holy! Holy! Holy!

R J Hinds is a southern snake dancing baptist. The fact that he can read is amazing.

Originally posted by RJHinds

It is in that sense that Jesus, the man, is the firstborn of all creation of GOD, but not the first creation of GOD.
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That is right that the man Jesus was not the first created thing by God.

For Jesus, the man, did not exisit in the beginning as we can see from Genesis 1, because the first man was Adam.
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He is the second man and "the last Adam".
He is not the first man or the first Adam.


Colossians 1:16 switches from talking about Jesus, the man, to HIM as the uncreated WORD that was with GOD in the beginning and was GOD.
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Okay but He is speaking of Jesus Christ.

Is verse 16 in anyway a SWITCH from what Who Paul was speaking of 13b and 14 ?

" ... transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins; " (v.13b.14)

The Son of His love is Jesus Christ, without dispute.
"In whom we have redemption" also has to refer to Jesus, "the Son of His love".

Now we attache verse 13,14 to 15 -

" ... and transferred us into the into the kingdom of the Son of His love, In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins;

Who is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of creation, ..."

Is there any reason for me to think Paul is not still speaking about Jesus ? I don't think so. He may be speaking of Jesus Christ before incarnation when He says ...

"Because in Him were all things created ..."

But "of creation" in the phrase "the Firstborn OF CREATION" we have to take as pertaining to created things.

Because Jesus Christ is the Creator God become a man, and man is without dispute creation of God, Jesus Christ is the Firstborn of all creation. In all creation of things God incarnate as the man Jesus is preeminent, pre-existent, supreme and the Source of all things for whom (unto whom) and through whom all was created (v.16)

I think you are saying the One who is the image of the invisible God involves no switch of Person but at most in time. We may say that a glimpse of the Person of Jesus BEFORE incarnation is seen, before God became a man.

As believers in the incarnation of God clothing Himself in His own creation, that God is the Creator as well as the creature.

The Firstborn in verse 15 is of the old creation.
The Firstborn in verse 18 is of the new creation, after resurrection "the Firstborn from the dead"

Jesus was not the first human being raised from the dead.
But Jesus is "the Firstborn from the dead".

Jesus was not the first man or first item God created.
But Jesus is "the Firstborn of all creation".

In the old creation He is First and preeminent.
And in the new creation He is FIrst and preeminent.
So in both realms, "in all things" He has the first place.

"And He is the Head of the Body, the church; He is the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead,

that He Himself might have the first place in all things." (v.18)

Timewise He was not the first created thing. But He is " the Firstborn of all creation."

Timewise He was not the first to be raised from the dead. But He is "the Firstborn from the dead".

Actually, He is the first to be resurrected with a glorified humanity. Though Lazarus was raised, and the widows child was raised, and we could find another raising in the Old Testament, Christ is was the first to be resurrected with a glorified humanity.

I think we may be very close to saying the same thing. My burden is that we Christian never be hesitant to admit that as a MAN, a human being, Jesus Christ is also a creature. That is the essence of incarnation - that God became one with His own creation.

All certainly has not been said of what could be said about Colossians 1:15-22. Praise the Lord Jesus.

And the triune being of God must be seen in verses 19 and 20.

" For in Him all the fullness was pleased to dwell. (v.19)

And though Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross - through Him, ... (v.20b)

If "the fullness" was PLEASED, the fullness must be a [Person]. So this is rather mysterious. One was PLEASED to dwell in One. One was PLEASED to reconcile all things to One by the blood of His cross.

It is more profound that I can fully utter. But Christ is both the Creator and the creature united as one Person.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] It is in that sense that Jesus, the man, is the firstborn of all creation of GOD, but not the first creation of GOD.
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That is right that the man Jesus was not the first created thing by God.

For Jesus, the man, did not exisit in the beginning as we can see from Ge ...[text shortened]... the phrase [b]"the Firstborn OF CREATION" we have to take as pertaining to created things.[/b]

I disagree on Colossians 1:16. Paul could not be talking about Jesus as a mere man. Since we know Jesus, the man, was not in existence to create all things. So he must have been talking about Jesus as the WORD before anything was created and before the WORD became Jesus. I guess we will have to just agree to disagree like we do on many other things.

Originally posted by RJHinds

I disagree on Colossians 1:16. Paul could not be talking about Jesus as a mere man.
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Was He talking about Jesus in any sense ?

Since we know Jesus, the man, was not in existence to create all things. So he must have been talking about Jesus as the WORD before anything was created and before the WORD became Jesus.
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So to my question "Was he talking about Jesus in any sense?" your answer is Yes.

So he must have been talking about Jesus as the WORD before anything was created and before the WORD became Jesus.
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Isn't it hard to say Paul was not talking about Jesus ?
You yourself say he was taking about Jesus before He was the man Jesus.

So it is rather hard to say Paul is not talking about Jesus.
Before His incarnation it is hard to say that Jesus was completely not.


I guess we will have to just agree to disagree like we do on many other things.
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Without going back over what was posted, this morning, I gather that we are both saying Jesus Christ is the Firstborn of all creation as Colossians says.

You seem to be saying that this is Jesus before He became Jesus. Before the Word became flesh John 1:14 the Word was the Firstborn of all creation ?

I'll spend some time on that. I will revisit that.

The BECAUSE in verse 16 seems to be the EXPLANATION of what Paul has just previously written -

" ... the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation, BECAUSE ... in Him all things were created ..."

I do see something of your point. But notice how hard it is for you to say that that Person was not Jesus in some sense.

So he must have been talking about Jesus as the WORD before anything was created and before the WORD became Jesus.
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So he must be talking about WHO ??

So he must have been talking about Jesus as the WORD before anything was created and before the WORD became Jesus.
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Jesus as the WORD ? Is that Jesus ?

So it is hard to say he is not talking about the same Jesus who was a created man. The uncreated and infinite became one with the created and finite. This is incarnation.

You don't have to take my advice. But I would be careful not to let anyone push you unintentionally into saying Jesus is not a created man though He is also the uncreated eternal God.

The Apostle John says Jesus came in the flesh. Now he could have said as he did elsewhere something like - the Logos came in the flesh. But notice to speak of the vital truth of the incarnation of God as a man John says "Jesus Christ coming in the flesh"

"For many deceivers went out into the world, those who do not confess Jesus Christ coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist." ( 2 John 1:7)

What do you think ? See how John emphasizes the importance of confessing Jesus ... coming in the flesh ? Jesus is God. Jesus is God incarnated. Jesus is God become a man. Jesus ... Jesus Christ ... has come in the flesh.

See what I mean ?

Here again -

"In this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,

And every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God, ..." (1 John 4:2,3a)

So it is hard to speak of no Jesus at all even before He became a man created by God, nine months in the virgin's womb and born a baby.

He is the Creator. He is also the creature. Robbie, Galveston, and Roigam would say Jesus Christ is only the creature because they do not believe He is God.

I believe that the Word - God became flesh. And I believe Jesus Christ came in the flesh. I think you also believe Jesus is God become a man.

We may differ somewhat on how to take Colossians 1:15,16.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
R J Hinds is a southern snake dancing baptist. The fact that he can read is amazing.

More ad hominen

Originally posted by sonship
Because Jesus Christ is the Creator God become a man, and man is without dispute creation of God, Jesus Christ is the Firstborn of all creation. In all creation of things God incarnate as the man Jesus is preeminent, pre-existent, supreme and the Source of all things for whom (unto whom) and through whom all was created (v.16)

I think you are saying the ...[text shortened]... He was not the first to be raised from the dead. But He is [b]"the Firstborn from the dead".[/b]

Ahh the old preeminent argument where a word used in context with Jesus magically takes on an entirely different meaning than it has been used up until that point in the Bible. Yes dear friends, prior to its usage here 'firstborn', refers exclusively to progeny, as in the 'first born of the Egyptians' etc upwards of thirty times it is used with regard to progeny, but when it comes into contact with Jesus, its transformed away from progeny to preeminent. Once again the Bible does not say preeminent of all creation, it states 'firstborn of creation'. Once again the Bible does not say what sonship wants it to say.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Ahh the old preeminent argument where a word used in context with Jesus magically takes on an entirely different meaning than it has been used up until that point in the Bible. Yes dear friends, prior to its usage here 'firstborn', refers exclusively to progeny, as in the 'first born of the Egyptians' etc upwards of thirty times it is used with rega ...[text shortened]... states 'firstborn of creation'. Once again the Bible does not say what sonship wants it to say.

Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

(2 Peter 3:14-16 NASB)

Just because Paul uses "firstborn" in an untradition way to explain God's firstborn Son as His only begotten Son, it does not give you and the Watchtower Society license to twist the meaning to mean "first created" or to distort the meaning of "firstborn of the dead" to mean "first raised" from the dead. As Peter says, that distorts the meaning to your own destruction.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Ahh the old preeminent argument where a word used in context with Jesus magically takes on an entirely different meaning than it has been used up until that point in the Bible. Yes dear friends, prior to its usage here 'firstborn', refers exclusively to progeny, as in the 'first born of the Egyptians' etc upwards of thirty times it is used with rega ...[text shortened]... states 'firstborn of creation'. Once again the Bible does not say what sonship wants it to say.

Robbie, I think you are right.
There is more than one who can't understand what they read in the Bible.
i.e. (1 Timothy 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, .....a man,..... Christ Jesus,
It says in good King's English Jesus is a man!
Why do they not understand that statement?

Originally posted by roigam
Robbie, I think you are right.
There is more than one who can't understand what they read in the Bible.
i.e. (1 Timothy 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, .....a man,..... Christ Jesus,
It says in good King's English Jesus is a man!
Why do they not understand that statement?

Why do you think we do not understand Jesus is man? Of course, we understand Jesus was born of a woman, Mary. But He was also the firstborn of God. That is the part you either don't understand or refuse to acknowledge the implications.