Meditation

@philokalia said
Is an atheist prejudiced against all religious traditions because he bluntly states that there is no God?

To my way of thinking, I'd say yes.

@philokalia said
For someone who talks about honestly employing the word cult without pulling any punches, you're awfully sensitive.

"Sensitive"?

@philokalia said
Why do I need to do all that when you are here to do it for me? 😛

I believe you should feel the need to do it and then do it yourself. But you should post as you see fit.

@philokalia said
I was talking about this

Your dabbling with Buddhism in the past isn't evidence of anything really.

When I said this

Right, I actually did not use it as evidence for anything.

If your experience of Buddhism did NOT supposedly provide you with evidence that meditation is a "spiritual dead end" that leads to spiritual delusion", then why did you mention it at all?

@philokalia said
How am I prejudiced?

You have a preconceived, doctrinal judgment about another religion and you are dismissing stuff as a "delusion" and even as spiritual "illness" based on the fact you tried it and it didn't float your boats ~ and some new theist ideology you are now a subscriber to has given you dogmatic criticisms of other people's spiritual paths.

Given the nature of this community, it seems a bit like partisan, ideological trash talk. Lazy, too. Any religionist can brand any proponent of a competing religion as having "delusions".

OK, so you have an adverse opinion based on what you may think is sufficient knowledge. But all you are doing is projecting your avid interest and newfound "knowledge" of a particular religion and telling yourself that this also gives you "knowledge" about the wrongness of other religions.

OK, you feel some fervour, I get it, and you are inspired by your new religion, and you are signalling your certainty about your beliefs, but in the circumstances, in this environment, bandying around the word "delusion" is the language of prejudice, to my way of thinking.

@fmf said
If your experience of Buddhism did NOT supposedly provide you with evidence that meditation is a "spiritual dead end" that leads to spiritual delusion", then why did you mention it at all?

I wanted people to know I was familiar with it and open to it, and not someone who is simply dismissing it as a knee-jerk reaction.

Of course, I could never claim to have done everything that can be done with meditation or to be an expert, so it would be decidedly lacking in humility to imply that I have some intimate understanding of a shortcoming in the practice itself.

Instead, I offer the best critique of anything that I know: that it does not relate itself back to God.

@fmf said
You have a preconceived, doctrinal judgment about another religion and you are dismissing stuff as a "delusion" and even as spiritual "illness" based on the fact you tried it and it didn't float your boats ~ and some new theist ideology you are now a subscriber to has given you dogmatic criticisms of other people's spiritual paths.

Given the nature of this community, it seems ...[text shortened]... nvironment, bandying around the word "delusion" is the language of prejudice, to my way of thinking.

Oh, OK, I am sorry that you think it is trash talk.

Do you want to talk about meditation, or do you just want to talk about me, personally?

Am I that much more interesting than meditation?

@philokalia said
Do you want to talk about meditation, or do you just want to talk about me, personally?

I am talking about meditation. Religionists trash talking other's spiritual paths and competing religions ~ meditation for example ~ are ten a penny, so it's not really about you personally.

@fmf said
I am talking about meditation. Religionists trash talking other's spiritual paths and competing religions ~ meditation for example ~ are ten a penny, so it's not really about you personally.

Glad to hear that, at least, I have good company.

@philokalia said
Glad to hear that, at least, I have good company.

I am not claiming that your religion is a "delusion" or a "spiritual dead end" or that your disapproval of meditation is a kind of spiritual "illness".

One of the things that drew me towards Orthodoxy from the start was the practice of hesychasm.

I felt that there was something really special down this road because I had always thought that the visualization processes within Catholic prayer was not going to be good in the long run. It was far too emotive, and I had thought that it would result in potentially just surfing some pleasurable sensations more than actual prayer and contemplation.

One of the things that I had found while meditating in a Buddhist style was that meditation with visualization distracted from the actual goals. You could end up finding some sort of pleasurable series of visualizations that would actually increase your ego and not eliminate it.

Robert Thurman and others have talked about how there are these people out there that have, say, an out of body experience or some other event during meditation, and from that they actually end up getting an ifnlated ego and become sloppy in their practice.

It made sense to me, as well, that any Christian teaching that allowed for so much visualization opened itself up to these types of errors and self-deceptions.

I think all good meditative practices encourage zero visualization, and only aim to have oneself disassociated with the world and embedded in stillness.

The thing is... when there is not God, the God, at the center of one's practice, it is literally just pure disassociation... That can have its benefits, but it is also something like floating between the abyss and the hell of reality, whereas, when rooted in God, I feel it is not unlike approaching God to some degree -- as much as we can.

@vivify said
Do any of you meditate? If so, how would you describe your experience?

I meditate every day, usually once, and that right before bed. Those who advance sufficiently in most martial arts get introduced to it fairly early in the process. There is very little of the "spiritual" in my meditation as I generally use it to refocus and center the connection between mind and body. In this way, when I am sparring, or exercising within my art, I will also use meditation beforehand to reinforce the mind-body connection. Meditation is not spiritual for me -- if I seek a spiritual connection, I pray, although I've been known to pause meditation for a short prayer. Spirituality, to me, speaks to and through the soul, and so is different than my use for meditation.

Far be it for me to presume to tell others what value meditation is to them. It's merely a tool for me, I use it for a purpose and not as a journey or avenue for discovery or however other people may find meditation useful. If others find spirituality in meditation, then more power to them.

@philokalia said
it would be a mistake to ever credit yourself with your own spiritual progress.

Right ... that would be leaving out the mandatory masochism associated with this type of Christian theology.

@bigdoggproblem said
Right ... that would be leaving out the mandatory masochism associated with this type of Christian theology.

I think you would be less skeptical of this if you understood to what extent one ought to become selfless and compassionate in the process of Buddhist practice.

Wherever I am, whomever I’m with,May I regard myself as lower than all others,
And from the depths of my heart,
May I hold them as supreme and cherish them.

It also reminds me of stories of Bodhisattvas addressing those who anger and insult them with you, too, shall be a Buddha, and never turning anyone away.

This comes from the concept of Tathagatagarbha -- the notion that, within all, there is the seed of the Buddha. To grow to be a Buddha is not inherently special, for it is the eventual fate of everyone in Mahayana Buddhism, and it is a path that a great many koti of Buddhists have taken before us.

Is this masochistic?

I suppose someone could call it that.

But what if it is just an honest description of reality -- for the Buddhist and for the Christian -- to be humble, and to belief oneself not a snowflake?

@philokalia said
I think you would be less skeptical of this if you understood to what extent one ought to become selfless and compassionate in the process of Buddhist practice.

Wherever I am, whomever I’m with,May I regard myself as lower than all others,
And from the depths of my heart,
May I hold them as supreme and cherish them.

It also reminds me of stories of ...[text shortened]... ty -- for the Buddhist and for the Christian -- to be humble, and to belief oneself not a snowflake?

My point has nothing to do with humility, or lack thereof. It is more about the simpler truth that no one else can walk your spiritual path for you.