@vivify saidI meditated a lot in the Buddhist methods for several years when I was younger. I even attempted to practice some of the Catholic style forms of meditation, which involves picturing things, but I also abandoned these eventually.
Do any of you meditate? If so, how would you describe your experience?
I had a lot of interesting experiences meditating and I think it was a net gain, but I also feel like it was a spiritual dead end in the sense that it leads to spiritual delusion to believe that you are achieving something through a spiritual practice that is not centered in God... And, even if it is centered in God, it would be a mistake to ever credit yourself with your own spiritual progress.
I also believe that transcendental meditation can be dangerous as it really opens one up to prelest.
12 Aug 20
@philokalia saidPerhaps you are wrong about "God" ~ your religionist branding of spiritual beliefs or practices different from your own as being "spiritual delusion" and a "spiritual dead end", notwithstanding.
I had a lot of interesting experiences meditating and I think it was a net gain, but I also feel like it was a spiritual dead end in the sense that it leads to spiritual delusion to believe that you are achieving something through a spiritual practice that is not centered in God... And, even if it is centered in God, it would be a mistake to ever credit yourself with your own spiritual progress.
And perhaps "God" gave humans the capacity to use meditation as a means of not only exploring who He is and/or the nature of ourselves and the universe we inhabit but perhaps He also wants you "to credit yourself with your own spiritual progress".
This is a more open-minded view of meditation, I think. Your dabbling with Buddhism in the past isn't evidence of anything really.
What it does establish, however, is that you think it is a "delusion" because you think it is a "delusion".
All you have said, really, is that whatever your religion is, that is what is "centered in God". And whatever meditation unrelated to your religion that people engage in is "not centered in God".
12 Aug 20
@fmf saidSure, feel free to make that argument.
Perhaps you are wrong about "God" ~ your religionist branding of spiritual beliefs or practices different from your own as being "spiritual delusion" and a "spiritual dead end", notwithstanding.
12 Aug 20
@fmf saidYeah, you could also make an argument like that, sure.
And perhaps "God" gave humans the capacity to use meditation as a means of not only exploring who He is and/or the nature of ourselves and the universe we inhabit but perhaps He also wants you "to credit yourself with your own spiritual progress".
12 Aug 20
@fmf saidRight, I actually did not use it as evidence for anything.
This is a more open-minded view of meditation, I think. Your dabbling with Buddhism in the past isn't evidence of anything really.
And your view appears to be more "open minded."
However, open mindedness does not necessarily correlate with correctness, but this is an interesting insight into the way you think, thanks.
12 Aug 20
@fmf saidThat is what it said.
What it does establish, however, is that you think it is a "delusion" because you think it is a "delusion".
All you have said, really, is that whatever your religion is, that is what is "centered in God". And whatever meditation unrelated to your religion that people engage in is "not centered in God".
The implication, of course, is that which is not centered explicitly in God cannot be correct, which is a theologically & spiritually significant point.
Thus, it is something worth putting into a spiritual discussion.
I am glad you pointed that out.
12 Aug 20
@philokalia saidPrelest (from Russian: прелесть, from Russian: лесть - cajolery (charm, seduction), Greek: πλάνη - plani), also known as [wiki]: spiritual delusion, spiritual deception, delusion, illusion, – according to Holy Fathers of Orthodox Church, a false spiritual state, a spiritual illness, "a wounding of human nature by falsehood" (St. Ignatius Brianchaninov).
I also believe that transcendental meditation can be dangerous as it really opens one up to prelest.
The concept of prelest should not be confused with somatic mental illness of any kind; prelest is rather a spiritual illness, an illness of the soul in its personal relation to God, an illness that originates from vainglory, pride, and demonic suggestion and that is to be cured by humility and Holy Sacraments and under the guidance of the spiritual father. [wiki]
Gosh, sounds simply awful.
12 Aug 20
@philokalia saidBut your attitude to other people's spiritual paths is so utterly limited and prejudiced by your relatively recent complete balls-to-the-wall underpants-nailed-to-the-mast subscription-internalization-regurgitation of a particular dogma/doctrine of a particular Christian denomination.
Thus, it is something worth putting into a spiritual discussion.
You really ought to make that clear, explicitly, over and over again, like a caveat emptor, rather than just ooze stuff about "delusion" and "dead ends" etc.
Your criteria for what is and isn't "delusion" is simply second-hand stuff you have rote-learned from a specific religious group. You should constantly remind others that this is the reality underpinning your take on their spiritual paths.
12 Aug 20
@philokalia saidYou tried to. You quite clearly were suggesting that Buddhist meditation is a "spiritual dead end" that leads to spiritual delusion" simply because it is not the same as whatever religion you are a member of now.
Right, I actually did not use it as evidence for anything.
12 Aug 20
@philokalia saidIf you see yourself as promoting "correctness" here, that's OK, I suppose. Presumably, doing so means you now have to squeeze all your former pre-Orthodox Catholic curiosity through very specific doctrinal valves in order that, whatever you get from doing that, it does not deviate from the very specific doctrine of the Orthodox Catholic Church.
However, open mindedness does not necessarily correlate with correctness, but this is an interesting insight into the way you think, thanks.
12 Aug 20
@fmf saidHow am I prejudiced?
But your attitude to other people's spiritual paths is so utterly limited and prejudiced by your relatively recent complete balls-to-the-wall underpants-nailed-to-the-mast subscription-internalization-regurgitation of a particular dogma/doctrine of a particular Christian denomination.
You really ought to make that clear, explicitly, over and over again, like a caveat emptor, r ...[text shortened]... d constantly remind others that this is the reality underpinning your take on their spiritual paths.
Is an atheist prejudiced against all religious traditions because he bluntly states that there is no God?
Why would I be prejudiced for stating that I feel that all spirituality not centered around God is a dead end?
For someone who talks about honestly employing the word cult without pulling any punches, you're awfully sensitive.
You really ought to make that clear, explicitly, over and over again, like a caveat emptor, rather than just ooze stuff about "delusion" and "dead ends" etc.
Your criteria for what is and isn't "delusion" is simply second-hand stuff you have rote-learned from a specific religious group. You should constantly remind others that this is the reality underpinning your take on their spiritual paths.
Why do I need to do all that when you are here to do it for me? 😛
12 Aug 20
@fmf saidThis reply is actually off point.
You tried to. You quite clearly were suggesting that Buddhist meditation is a "spiritual dead end" that leads to spiritual delusion" simply because it is not the same as whatever religion you are a member of now.
I was talking about this
Your dabbling with Buddhism in the past isn't evidence of anything really.
When I said this
Right, I actually did not use it as evidence for anything.