Originally posted by galveston75Yes.
Do you know the trinity ideas came from pagan nations before Jesus was ever on earth?
The Trinity doctrine was introduced early in the 3rd century by Tertullian. And then signed into Roman law by Constantine in 325 AD. Mostly to bring the pagans in. Most likely for their money and power over them by Rome.
One of the many mistakes by the leaders of the Roman Catholic church of that time, for power over others as the pharisees always tried to have.
But just because people believe in the trinity today does not make their salvation or love for God or Jesus any less, or mean we're above them in any way. They still call on Jesus and worship the same God Almighty.
To I it really makes no difference, and I still go to a Trinity church and worship there. I mostly have to keep my beliefs and knowledge on this issue to myself. They think my beliefs are heresy, and are shocked and appalled. And I've even lost good friends afters years, that now think I'm a heretic. Oh well I will live, Lord willing.
I'm one that just goes by scripture and what God reveals to me. Not mans interpretation of scripture or what they have been taught for thousands of years.
satan tempted Jesus with twisted interpretation of scripture. How much more does he try and fool us.
Originally posted by KingDavid403I'm impressed that you know the history of the trinity. Not many do or they tend to ignor it.
Yes.
The Trinity doctrine was introduced early in the 3rd century by Tertuillian. And then signed into Roman law by Constantine in 325 AD. Mostly to bring the pagans in. Most likely for their money and power over them by Rome.
One of the many mistakes by the leaders of the Roman Catholic church of that time, for power over others as the pha ...[text shortened]... good friends afters years, that now think I'm a heretic. Oh well I will live, Lord willing.
I understand your view and respect that. But let me ask you this.
In light of the warnings that were given by Jesus himself and then later by the Apostle Paul about such things entering the congregations after they were gone, would this belief not be included as something to avoid? Again it did come from a very pagan society that God completely denounced
Like Acts 20: 28 - 30. 2Pet 2: 1 - 3. 1Tim 4:1.
And sure enough history proves that ruffly 400 years after their deaths are when many beliefs that were never taught in the orginal congregations were now excepted.
The scripture that comes to mind is at 2Cor 6:14. Jehovah does not even except shades of gray in our beliefs much less darkness. Only truths in our worship.
Just a thought....
Originally posted by galveston75So then I guess I would have to apply what you are saying to the doctrines put forth by Jehovah Witnesses too, as that doctrine states that Jesus isn't God, and I believe He is. Especially when scripture states He is. Read on:
I'm impressed that you know the history of the trinity. Not many do or they tend to ignor it.
I understand your view and respect that. But let me ask you this.
In light of the warnings that were given by Jesus himself and then later by the Apostle Paul about such things entering the congregations after they were gone, would this belief not be include ...[text shortened]... des of gray in our beliefs much less darkness. Only truths in our worship.
Just a thought....
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1Jo 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world
1Jo 4:6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
1Jo 5:10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
1Jo 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
Trinitarians Have the Son.
Originally posted by KingDavid403Interesting verse.
So then I guess I would have to apply what you are saying to the doctrines put forth by Jehovah Witnesses too, as that doctrine states that Jesus isn't God, and I believe He is. Especially when scripture states He is. Read on:
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Originally posted by KingDavid403Well I have a couple questions about Jesus and God being the same. Go to Gen 1:26. It says "let us" there. Who was he speaking to?
So then I guess I would have to apply what you are saying to the doctrines put forth by Jehovah Witnesses too, as that doctrine states that Jesus isn't God, and I believe He is. Especially when scripture states He is. Read on:
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
John 6:46. If Jesus was God why did he make this comment? Why even say something like that if he was God?
Acts 7:55,56 says Stephen saw Jesus at the right hand of God in a vision. Two beings, not one. Where was the Holy Spirit if it is a person or spirit like the others?
Who did Jesus pray to on many occasions? When he was being baptized, who spoke to him?
Jesus is called the first born. God has always been.
Mark 13: 32 says that the hour is only known by God. The son does not know. If they were the same, Jesus would know all that God knows. Right?
Matt 20: 20 - 23 says that only God his father can grant ones to sit at his right hand.
Is the holy spirit a person and is it more important then Jesus? If they are the same then it would be no. But Matt 12: 31,32 says differently.
John says the Father, God, is greater then him. What does that mean?
1 Cor 11:3 says the head of Christ is God. Right?
1 Cor 8: 5,6. Jesus is refered to as a God. But he is never called Almighty God.
In most Bibles notice when Jesus is called Lord, only the "L" is capitalized. When it refers to God, they are all capitalized.
John 1:18 says no one has seen God. But humans saw Jesus.
Most that believe in the trinity refer to John 1;1,2. You really need to do research on what was really said and meant by that scripture. " The Journal of Biblical Literature, 1973, pp. 85, 87."
" Dictionary of the Bible, 1965 pp. 317."
Phill 2: 5,6 says he is not equal to God.
John 14:8. States very clearly God is greater.
God is eternal. He cannot die.
A point to make is if they are the same, why have different names. Why does the Holy Ghost not have a name? If they were the same why does the Bible speak of them speaking to each other, one praying to the other, one resurrecting the other?
Give me your thoughts...
Originally posted by KingDavid403Complete rubbish. No doubt you have never read any Patristic writings, never consulted real Trinitarian scholarship and that your whole knowledge is from twisted Protestant propopganda.
Yes.
The Trinity doctrine was introduced early in the 3rd century by Tertullian. And then signed into Roman law by Constantine in 325 AD. Mostly to bring the pagans in. Most likely for their money and power over them by Rome.
One of the many mistakes by the leaders of the Roman Catholic church of that time, for power over others as the phar ...[text shortened]... mpted Jesus with twisted interpretation of scripture. How much more does he try and fool us.
The Trinity doctrine was introduced early in the 3rd century by Tertullian. And then signed into Roman law by Constantine in 325 AD. Mostly to bring the pagans in. Most likely for their money and power over them by Rome.
Actually, I would be interested to find out whether Tertullian wrote about the Trinity. I know he wrote about the dual divinity and humanity of Christ but he wrote long before the controversy of Arianism and so I doubt that he made any significant contribution to the Trinitarian dogma.
And besides, Tertullian was a heretic and only a Latin theologian. Many of his ideas were repudiated by the Christian Church and completely disregarded by the Greek churches. There's no point blaming Trinitarianism on the Roman Catholic Church -- it is just as much a part of the Eastern Orthodox Churches.
One of the many mistakes by the leaders of the Roman Catholic church of that time, for power over others as the pharisees always tried to have.
Yep, typical Protestant propoganda. Probably never even heard of the Greek Orthodox.
Originally posted by galveston75I will have to get back to you on this as I'm leaving out the door soon for my vacation. I'll be back in a few days. Most your questions are the say arguments that the trinitarians have.
Well I have a couple questions about Jesus and God being the same. Go to Gen 1:26. It says "let us" there. Who was he speaking to?
John 6:46. If Jesus was God why did he make this comment? Why even say something like that if he was God?
Acts 7:55,56 says Stephen saw Jesus at the right hand of God in a vision. Two beings, not one. Where was the Holy ...[text shortened]... er, one praying to the other, one resurrecting the other?
Give me your thoughts...
I will say this for now.
God is spirit. That's scripture.
God is One. that's scripture.
Jhn 14:8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."
Jhn 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Jhn 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own [authority]; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
Jhn 14:11 Believe Me that I [am] in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
Jhn 14:12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater [works] than these he will do, because I go to My Father.
Jhn 14:13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Jhn 14:14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do [it].
Jhn 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.
14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever--
Jhn 14:17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
Jhn 14:18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
Jhn 14:19 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.
Jhn 14:20 At that day you will know that I [am] in My Father and the Father is in me.
God is Spirit.
Originally posted by Conrau KYou clearly need to study your history.
Complete rubbish. No doubt you have never read any Patristic writings, never consulted real Trinitarian scholarship and that your whole knowledge is from twisted Protestant propopganda.
[b]
The Trinity doctrine was introduced early in the 3rd century by Tertullian. And then signed into Roman law by Constantine in 325 AD. Mostly to bring the pagan ...[text shortened]... .
Yep, typical Protestant propoganda. Probably never even heard of the Greek Orthodox.[/b]
Originally posted by KingDavid403Whatever. I have never read Tertullian. Perhaps he wrote on the Trinity. But since he was only a Latin theologian, who was also considered a heretic and denied sainthood, I doubt that his influence would have been great over the Eastern churches. I don't buy your theory.
You clearly need to study your history.
Originally posted by KingDavid403We've all heard comments such as we are of the "same mind or thought" when it comes to a couples or a group of peoples beliefs, goals, morals, plans, likes or dislikes, that could apply to governments, militaries, sports, organizations, clubs, religions, etc?
I will have to get back to you on this as I'm leaving out the door soon for my vacation. I'll be back in a few days. Most your questions are the say arguments that the trinitarians have.
I will say this for now.
God is spirit. That's scripture.
God is One. that's scripture.
Jhn 14:8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and i ...[text shortened]... ay you will know that I [am] in My Father and the Father is in me.
God is Spirit.
The idea that all in a group would have the same plan or ideas on how to accomplish a goal is understood to mean they all work together to accomplish or stand for something. But...they are still all individuals, not one person.
If for just a minute look at these scriptures you quoted in a different light and use this example you could see that this is what Jesus was simply saying.
Something needed to happen to make it so humans could have the chance to regain what Adam lost for all of us. We know that Jesus offered to come to earth as a human and to finally let himself die for us all. And he knew exactly what his father wanted him to do while he was here. Jesus never once faltered in this and on many occasions confirmed that his thoughts and goals were the same as his Fathers. When he said that when you look at him, you see the father is no different then when a ambassador from another country is representing his country. He is the spokesman for his country's thought and ideals. Jesus was only doing the same....
Originally posted by KingDavid403oh no, another guy who cannot comprehend the composite parts of the bible, so as to form a proper understanding and evaluation of verse, oh well, it happens.
So then I guess I would have to apply what you are saying to the doctrines put forth by Jehovah Witnesses too, as that doctrine states that Jesus isn't God, and I believe He is. Especially when scripture states He is. Read on:
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Originally posted by KingDavid403Dictionary of the Bible says: " The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of 'person' which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as 'essence' and 'substance' were erroneosly applied to god by some theologians." (New York, 1965), p. 899
I will have to get back to you on this as I'm leaving out the door soon for my vacation. I'll be back in a few days. Most your questions are the say arguments that the trinitarians have.
I will say this for now.
God is spirit. That's scripture.
God is One. that's scripture.
Jhn 14:8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and i ...[text shortened]... ay you will know that I [am] in My Father and the Father is in me.
God is Spirit.
The Encyelopedia Americana: " Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [ believing that God is one person ]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching." ( 1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.
I'll give short answers.
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Well I have a couple questions about Jesus and God being the same. Go to Gen 1:26. It says "let us" there. Who was he speaking to?
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God was speaking to God. Compare it with Isaiah 6:8 .
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John 6:46. If Jesus was God why did he make this comment? Why even say something like that if he was God?
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Because by this time He is God incarnated as a man, thus the mingling of God and man. He speaks here from the standpoint of the man side of this union:
"Not that anyone has seen the Father except Him who is from God, He has seen the Father" (John 6:56)
Whereas your priorities are just to maintian the divinity of God, God's priorities include to be united and blended with humanity. Jesus Christ is the beginning of that mingling so He spoke thus.
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Acts 7:55,56 says Stephen saw Jesus at the right hand of God in a vision. Two beings, not one. Where was the Holy Spirit if it is a person or spirit like the others?
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The Holy Spirit was IN STEPHEN !! The Triune God is about God dispensing Himself into man. The Holy Spirit is the final stage in the journey of God into man and is God reaching man.
When the Holy Spirit comes into man that is also the coming of the Father and the Son. This is proved in John 14 particularly verse 23 when Jesus says that He and the Father as the divine "WE" will come to make an abode in the one who loves Jesus.
If you read the whole chapter carefully you will see that the coming to the disciples of "The Spirit of Truth" who is "Another Comforter" ie. the Holy Spirit is simultaneously the coming of the Father and the Son as the "WE" in verse 23:
"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
The priority of man's religion is usually to keep God and man apart. But the economy of God is for God to dispense Himself into man to be man's eternal life.
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Who did Jesus pray to on many occasions? When he was being baptized, who spoke to him?
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The Son was speaking to His Father. And concerning the voice I believe the Scripture simply says a voice.
But "eternal life" should mean also a life beyond normal limitations. So just as we see the Angel of Jehovah addressed as Jehovah Himself in the Old Testament, so also we see God as both the Father and the incarnated Son praying to and submitting to the Father.
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Jesus is called the first born. God has always been.
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He is called the Firstborn in two regards. He is called the Firstborn of all creation and the Firstborn from among the dead. The Firstborn from the dead is also the "Firstborn among many brothers." Neither mean the He is not God incarnate.
No passage relating to Jesus Christ as Firstborn in any regard can be used to prove that He is not God incarnate as a man.
But I will go into the relevant passages in this post. I promised short answers.
Mark 13: 32 says that the hour is only known by God. The son does not know. If they were the same, Jesus would know all that God knows. Right?
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It should be obvious that when God incarnated as a man sometimes He was surprised, He marveled, He was limited, and He expressed the limitations of a man. At that time He knew not the hour of His Second Coming. Perhaps He knows now. Either way nothing about His limitation of knowledge as a man proves that He was not God become a man.
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Matt 20: 20 - 23 says that only God his father can grant ones to sit at his right hand.
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Christ as God incarnate as a man was obedient and subjected to the Father in every way. He did not exalt Himself. He did not vindicate Himself. He left all these things up to His Father.
It is indeed mysterious.
And I will stop here for length's sake.
Originally posted by jaywillYou know Jay...I honestly really, really try to understand what your saying, even a little so I can make some kind of responce to you that would make sence. But the Bible is really so simple and to be honest with you, this makes no sence at all. The truth should be so all looking to understand can do it. But this is so confusing and contridicts itself in so many ways.
I'll give short answers.
[b]==================================
Well I have a couple questions about Jesus and God being the same. Go to Gen 1:26. It says "let us" there. Who was he speaking to?
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God was speaking to God. Compare it with Isaiah 6:8 .
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John 6:4 ...[text shortened]...
It is indeed mysterious.
And I will stop here for length's sake.
Not only does it not sound logical but it completely contridicts all the other scriptures that are so crystal clear that they are two different beings. A father and so or 2 different beings. Why would they use that terminology if they we the same? Why if they are the same does the Holy Ghost have no name? That's a silly question but this to be asked considering what you explain here.
But as I said earlier it was never taught by the earkly Christians and was of pagan origin. Does that not worry you? No disrespect meant but just my view...