Originally posted by SuzianneYes, we want Christian input on the question of the relative theological importance of the Immaculate Conception and the Virgin Birth. Ideally, input from a diverse array of Christians including Catholics, Protestants and others.
You want Christian input on this?
Baloney. If you did, you wouldn't have started a "Moderated" thread.
At least you could be upfront about your "moderation" idea just being a front to silence Christians. Don't set up a topic as "moderated" (aka biased and exclusive) and then complain you're not getting the theist side participating. It's like compl ...[text shortened]... ining that the Jews aren't showing up for a Nazi symposium on "The Final Solution: Hit or Miss?"
What do you think about the question?
I don't remember seeing the Immaculate Reception, only hearing about it. I remember the announcers doing the broadcast, Franco Harris and company giving an interview, the reaction of the crowd. But I never saw the play, and so I trust my Dad who I consider a witness of the fact. Let me guess, I should start a new thread. I was trying to give a parallel.
Originally posted by Of Ants and ImpsI don't think it counts as a miracle as it can be recreated under playstation laboratory conditions.
I don't remember seeing the Immaculate Reception, only hearing about it. I remember the announcers doing the broadcast, Franco Harris and company giving an interview, the reaction of the crowd. But I never saw the play, and so I trust my Dad who I consider a witness of the fact. Let me guess, I should start a new thread. I was trying to give a parallel.
Originally posted by bbarrThe doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is a purely Catholic doctrine (two similar ones are Transubstantiation and Papal Infallibility) which most Protestants either violently disagree with or simply ignore.
Yes, we want Christian input on the question of the relative theological importance of the Immaculate Conception and the Virgin Birth. Ideally, input from a diverse array of Christians including Catholics, Protestants and others.
What do you think about the question?
For me, it is merely interesting to note that they saw the need for this doctrine, which really isn't necessary, but I don't think it is worth killing people over it!
Originally posted by CalJustI agree, I don't believe in it! The doctrine is not important to me, but
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is a purely Catholic doctrine (two similar ones are Transubstantiation and Papal Infallibility) which most Protestants either violently disagree with or simply ignore.
For me, it is merely interesting to note that they saw the need for this doctrine, which really isn't necessary, but I don't think it is worth killing people over it!
maybe for those that believe in it is. I assume those that do agree with it,
don't like the idea that Christ could come from a normal woman they have
to make her out to be something more.
Originally posted by Of Ants and ImpsI looked it up. I see the point you're making now, but that one's a bit lost on people on this side of the Atlantic.
I don't remember seeing the Immaculate Reception, only hearing about it. I remember the announcers doing the broadcast, Franco Harris and company giving an interview, the reaction of the crowd. But I never saw the play, and so I trust my Dad who I consider a witness of the fact. Let me guess, I should start a new thread. I was trying to give a parallel.
Originally posted by KellyJayWhat I don't get is this:
I agree, I don't believe in it! The doctrine is not important to me, but
maybe for those that believe in it is. I assume those that do agree with it,
don't like the idea that Christ could come from a normal woman they have
to make her out to be something more.
If you want Mary to be special then the Immaculate Conception (so she is
without Original Sin) and her Virginity (sinless?) are important.
If you don't need Mary to be special then neither Immaculate Conception or
the Virgin Birth are important.
Why one and not the other? Both or neither seems more coherent.
Originally posted by wolfgang59I am not a Catholic, but as I understand it, the idea is that Jesus got his humanity from Joseph, and his divinity from Mary. Hence Mary also had to be Immaculately Conceived.
What I don't get is this:
If you want Mary to be special then the Immaculate Conception (so she is
without Original Sin) and her Virginity (sinless?) are important.
Why one and not the other? Both or neither seems more coherent.
But as a Catholic priest once pointed out to me, that doesn't go far enough, since Mary's mother and grandmother, up to Eve, must also then have been IC'ed for Mary to have no "human" DNA.
So the doctrine really doesn't make any sense, but Catholics adhere to it out of tradition rather than logic. Tradition, and what the popes have said over the centuries, looms large in their teachings.
Originally posted by CalJustJesus didn't get anything from Joseph, since Joseph never touched Mary.
I am not a Catholic, but as I understand it, the idea is that Jesus got his humanity from Joseph, and his divinity from Mary. Hence Mary also had to be Immaculately Conceived.
But as a Catholic priest once pointed out to me, that doesn't go far enough, since Mary's mother and grandmother, up to Eve, must also then have been IC'ed for Mary to have no "hum ...[text shortened]... gic. Tradition, and what the popes have said over the centuries, looms large in their teachings.
So Mary gave Jesus his humanity, and the Holy Spirit gave Him birth, but
I'd say since Jesus is, and was the Word of God He already had his
divinity in His own right. He was and is the Son of God.
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Originally posted by CalJustI'm not IC nor have I ever studied their doctrine, I can only imagine that
OK, so that screws up my theory.
Why then was the IC believed to be necessary? Do you know?
they want Jesus not to be even remotely tarnished with the human stain.
I am guessing, like I said I don't know.
It is easy to identify with Jesus as God if everything about Him was divine,
but that takes away from Him being human, which was the point, God
with us.
Son of God, Son of man.
I do want to correct something I said earlier too.
"Joseph never touched Mary"
Jesus had siblings as in children from Joseph and Mary, so that did happen,
but not before Jesus was born.
Kelly