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Originally posted by KellyJayHere is an authoritative RCC source on the matter:
I'm not IC nor have I ever studied their doctrine, I can only imagine that
they want Jesus not to be even remotely tarnished with the human stain.
I am guessing, like I said I don't know.
It is easy to identify with Jesus as God if everything about Him was divine,
but that takes away from Him being human, which was the point, God
with us.
Son of God, ...[text shortened]... as in children from Joseph and Mary, so that did happen,
but not before Jesus was born.
Kelly
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
03 Dec 14
I would say before you ask whether IC is necessary it is important to go back to earlier doctrines of the perpetual virginity of Mary and her name Theotokos being approved.
All Christians agree on the inspired books of the New Testament, but there was a time when the inclusion of John's Apocalypse was questioned by many Christians. Eusebius appealed to the orthodoxy of his time in dictating the inspired canon of scriptures.
The early Church councils like some of the Eastern traditions are important to understand, being where the declarations against heresy first originated. If we disregard them we might easily do the same with the Book of Revelation.
03 Dec 14
2 edits
Originally posted by JS357I glanced at it, but the parts I read were basically what I thought.
Here is an authoritative RCC source on the matter:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
They didn't want Mary to have the stain of being human due to sin, the
scriptures don't promote this. She was a virgin and that is all scripture
gives us.
I don't think the issue of sin is through women though they do sin as men
do, but if you read scripture you will see that God lays it on Adam's feet
not Eve. Sin entered through one, Adam, and we all now have lives with
that, Jesus came that we might be saved.
I think the immaculate conception may seem like an answer, but I disagree
since it adds other issues that I think are very important, such as Jesus
was a man. Hard to be called a man if nothing about his birth really had
nothing human in involved now wouldn't you say?
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Originally posted by KellyJay"I glanced at it, but the parts I read were basically what I thought."
I glanced at it, but the parts I read were basically what I thought.
They didn't want Mary to have the stain of being human due to sin, the
scriptures don't promote this. She was a virgin and that is all scripture
gives us.
I don't think the issue of sin is through women though they do sin as men
do, but if you read scripture you will see that God ...[text shortened]... led a man if nothing about his birth really had
nothing human in involved now wouldn't you say?
It's funny how that works out so often.
03 Dec 14
Originally posted by JS357🙂 If I missed something I'll go back over...I did skim it. For me it is not
"I glanced at it, but the parts I read were basically what I thought."
It's funny how that works out so often.
something I really care about. I will however if you feel I missed something
or got something wrong.
Your right about that too!
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Originally posted by KellyJayIt's just not that simple.
🙂 If I missed something I'll go back over...I did skim it. For me it is not
something I really care about. I will however if you feel I missed something
or got something wrong.
Your right about that too!
"The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what "immaculate" means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.
When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.
The traditional translation, "full of grace," is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of "highly favored daughter." Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for "daughter" ). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind.Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence. "
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/immaculate-conception-and-assumption
04 Dec 14
Originally posted by JS357Grace is given to us from God, it is NOT something we have on our own
It's just not that simple.
"The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what "immaculate" means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these ...[text shortened]... oment of her existence. "
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/immaculate-conception-and-assumption
before God. Saying Mary was full of grace is no different than the rest
of us are now! We are given grace by God, it is not earned, we are not
good enough to get it, we actually need it because we are not good
enough on our own.
The saying Mary was full of grace does NOT talk about her birth, it talks
about her condition as she was before God. There are others who were
before God that were given grace, it is a huge stretch you are putting out
there that she was born sinless just because Gabriel spoke to her and
said she was full of grace. Since he did not say Mary you who were born
without sin!
04 Dec 14
Originally posted by KellyJayArgue that with the Pope.
Grace is given to us from God, it is NOT something we have on our own
before God. Saying Mary was full of grace is no different than the rest
of us are now! We are given grace by God, it is not earned, we are not
good enough to get it, we actually need it because we are not good
enough on our own.
The saying Mary was full of grace does NOT talk about ...[text shortened]... o her and
said she was full of grace. Since he did not say Mary you who were born
without sin!
What is the point of the Virgin birth then?
04 Dec 14
1 edit
Originally posted by JS357I did go back an read it, nothing has changed in my opinion I believe it is
It's just not that simple.
"The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what "immaculate" means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these ...[text shortened]... oment of her existence. "
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/immaculate-conception-and-assumption
a false doctrine. I see it making her out to be more than what she should be.
I do believe Christ was the only sinless one and if anyone was going to come
into this world sinless it would be Jesus and no other.
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04 Dec 14
Originally posted by KellyJayYet Jesus did not cast the first stone.
I did go back an read it, nothing has changed in my opinion I believe it is
a false doctrine. I see it making her out to be more than what she should be.
I do believe Christ was the only sinless one and if anyone was going to come
into this world sinless it would be Jesus and no other.
05 Dec 14
Originally posted by bbarrA few have intoned on either side of it, so I'll put my hat in the ring, too.
Yes, we want Christian input on the question of the relative theological importance of the Immaculate Conception and the Virgin Birth. Ideally, input from a diverse array of Christians including Catholics, Protestants and others.
What do you think about the question?
The IC is a extra-biblical doctrine which (in my opinion) stands as another example of man attempting to help God along, albeit from a position of ignorance.
The orthodox position has long maintained the doctrine of original sin so the birth of the Lord Jesus Christ (maiden, virgin) presents a bit of a problem for those who are unaware just how things work in the inner physical realm.
After all, if the Lord Jesus Christ was born of a woman, surely the stain of sin must have been transferred to Him as well?
Thus, the need for not only a virgin, but an unblemished virgin, a pure source.
What the folks back then didn't know is that every month, the woman presents to the world the only pure thing man (or, more specifically, woman) is capable of producing: the egg.
The promise from the midst of the Curse was to the woman; from the seed of the woman--- not the man--- would come the Savior of the world.
When Mary was born, her father passed onto her original sin just as every father since the Fall has passed onto their progeny the same.
God didn't need Mary to be perfect.
He had previously designed a system in meiosis and polar bodies which would cast off the original sin and present the only pure thing to come from the human race.
The Holy Spirit provided the catalyst which would impregnate that egg which would then divide multiple times and eventually birth the Savior of all mankind.
Mary was special, but she wasn't without sin.
05 Dec 14
Originally posted by FreakyKBHI agree
A few have intoned on either side of it, so I'll put my hat in the ring, too.
The IC is a extra-biblical doctrine which (in my opinion) stands as another example of man attempting to help God along, albeit from a position of ignorance.
The orthodox position has long maintained the doctrine of original sin so the birth of the Lord Jesus Christ (maiden ...[text shortened]... and eventually birth the Savior of all mankind.
Mary was special, but she wasn't without sin.