1. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    27 Nov '14 07:381 edit
    A while back I asked why this was important to Catholics and perhaps not
    Protestants. I was interested in why it would not be important when
    the Virgin Birth is, as I perceived both as validation of Christ's divinity.
  2. SubscriberFMF
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    27 Nov '14 07:532 edits
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    A while back I asked why this was important to Catholics and perhaps not
    Protestants. I was interested in why it would [b]not
    be important when
    the Virgin Birth is, as I perceived both as validation of Christ's divinity.[/b]
    When I was a Christian ~ or more specifically a Catholic ~ the supposed "Immaculate Conception" was important to me in so far as it created a supernatural and miraculous dimension to the arrival of Jesus, Son of God, on earth.

    Since I stopped professing that belief, I have become more aware of the fact that 'virgin births' are a common literary device through several religious traditions and it generally signifies the birth of a special figure in the folklore and/or signals divinity.

    For an overview see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miraculous_births

    I am now inclined to think that this was probably the reason why this 'story point' was inserted into the Christian Gospels in the decades after the death of Jesus.
  3. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    27 Nov '14 09:16
    Originally posted by FMF
    When I was a Christian ~ or more specifically a Catholic ~ the supposed "Immaculate Conception" was important to me in so far as it created a supernatural and miraculous dimension to the arrival of Jesus, Son of God, on earth.

    Since I stopped professing that belief, I have become more aware of the fact that 'virgin births' are a common literary device throug ...[text shortened]... s 'story point' was inserted into the Christian Gospels in the decades after the death of Jesus.
    Well yes from an atheist stand point I agree. My question is why is the
    Imaculate Conception not held in such regard as the Virgin Birth.

    I am trying to establish the relevant importance - not whether or not either is valid.

    It is really a question for current Christians to answer.
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    27 Nov '14 09:58
    Originally posted by FMF
    When I was a Christian ~ or more specifically a Catholic ~ the supposed "Immaculate Conception" was important to me in so far as it created a supernatural and miraculous dimension to the arrival of Jesus, Son of God, on earth. .
    Just to be clear, I think it important to note that the Immaculate Conception has to do with the conception of Mary and not Jesus, and is not to be found in the Bible. I actually did not know this until a few years ago and always thought 'Immaculate Conception' referred to Jesus' conception. As far as I know the Immaculate Conception is exclusive to the Roman Catholic Church, or at least only of particular importance to them.
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    27 Nov '14 10:40
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Just to be clear, I think it important to note that the Immaculate Conception has to do with the conception of Mary and not Jesus, and is not to be found in the Bible. I actually did not know this until a few years ago and always thought 'Immaculate Conception' referred to Jesus' conception. As far as I know the Immaculate Conception is exclusive to the Roman Catholic Church, or at least only of particular importance to them.
    yes, i almost forgot that one. i was surprised to when i heard it referred to marry and not jesus.


    as such i would say it is not needed at all. the bible already says no human is without sin, that no human is beyond redemption, all human are capable of righteousness. to impose that jesus HAS to be given birth by someone without sin is to deny the fact that jesus was supposed to be both human and deity.
  6. SubscriberSuzianne
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    27 Nov '14 10:48
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    A while back I asked why this was important to Catholics and perhaps not
    Protestants. I was interested in why it would [b]not
    be important when
    the Virgin Birth is, as I perceived both as validation of Christ's divinity.[/b]
    Good luck getting actual theist thought in here if this is going to be a "moderated" discussion.

    Not that you actually wanted any in the first place. Nice try to keep us out of the conversation. Have fun with your 'circle jerk'.

    I'm just not into being squelched.
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    27 Nov '14 10:50
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Just to be clear, I think it important to note that the Immaculate Conception has to do with the conception of Mary and not Jesus, and is not to be found in the Bible. I actually did not know this until a few years ago and always thought 'Immaculate Conception' referred to Jesus' conception. As far as I know the Immaculate Conception is exclusive to the Roman Catholic Church, or at least only of particular importance to them.
    I didn't know this either, thanks.
  8. SubscriberSuzianne
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    27 Nov '14 10:56
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    It is really a question for current Christians to answer.
    You want Christian input on this?

    Baloney. If you did, you wouldn't have started a "Moderated" thread.

    At least you could be upfront about your "moderation" idea just being a front to silence Christians. Don't set up a topic as "moderated" (aka biased and exclusive) and then complain you're not getting the theist side participating. It's like complaining that the Jews aren't showing up for a Nazi symposium on "The Final Solution: Hit or Miss?"
  9. SubscriberFMF
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    27 Nov '14 11:14
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    You want Christian input on this?

    Baloney. If you did, you wouldn't have started a "Moderated" thread.

    At least you could be upfront about your "moderation" idea just being a front to silence Christians. Don't set up a topic as "moderated" (aka biased and exclusive) and then complain you're not getting the theist side participating. It's like compl ...[text shortened]... ining that the Jews aren't showing up for a Nazi symposium on "The Final Solution: Hit or Miss?"
    You are comparing this thread topic to the Final Solution?
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    27 Nov '14 11:54
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Just to be clear, I think it important to note that the Immaculate Conception has to do with the conception of Mary and not Jesus, and is not to be found in the Bible. I actually did not know this until a few years ago and always thought 'Immaculate Conception' referred to Jesus' conception. As far as I know the Immaculate Conception is exclusive to the Roman Catholic Church, or at least only of particular importance to them.
    It baffles me how anyone could thumb this down. I didn't know this either, and it couldn't be more relevant to understanding and framing the debate.
  11. SubscriberFMF
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    27 Nov '14 12:50
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Just to be clear, I think it important to note that the Immaculate Conception has to do with the conception of Mary and not Jesus, and is not to be found in the Bible.
    Yes you are right. I went off half cock talking about the virgin birth when the OP talks about the Immaculate Conception.
  12. SubscriberFMF
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    27 Nov '14 12:571 edit
    Originally posted by Rank outsider
    It baffles me how anyone could thumb this down. I didn't know this either, and it couldn't be more relevant to understanding and framing the debate.
    [Side note on those thumbs down].

    From what I can work out there is a poster who rocks up here itching for a fight and, at that time, a crisp new thumbs down appears against virtually every single post [sometimes stretching back several pages on the posting history] by certain posters disliked by the aforementioned Itching One.

    I noticed an instance of this a couple of weeks ago. I checked my posting archive and found that going back five pages, every sing post of mine had a solitary thumbs down ~ 75 posts in a row, all with the one thumbs down. I am not the only one this kind of thing seems to happen to.
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    27 Nov '14 13:302 edits
    sorry
  14. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    27 Nov '14 16:251 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Just to be clear, I think it important to note that the Immaculate Conception has to do with the conception of Mary and not Jesus, and is not to be found in the Bible. I actually did not know this until a few years ago and always thought 'Immaculate Conception' referred to Jesus' conception. As far as I know the Immaculate Conception is exclusive to the Roman Catholic Church, or at least only of particular importance to them.
    Thanks, twhitehead. As with all other members of the human race, the mother of Christ's humanity was also born spiritually dead; neither sinless, perfect nor immaculately conceived herself. Mary's pregnancy was a virgin pregnancy caused by the miraculous work of God the Holy Spirit. Nor did she remain a virgin. After Christ was born she gave birth to at least six other children by Joseph. This is documented in the Matthew 13:53-57 description of Jesus revisiting Nazareth: "53 When Jesus had finished these parables, He departed from there. 54 He came to His hometown and began teaching them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers? 55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57 And they took offense at Him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household.” (NASB)
  15. SubscriberBigDoggProblem
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    27 Nov '14 17:53
    Originally posted by FMF
    [Side note on those thumbs down].

    From what I can work out there is a poster who rocks up here itching for a fight and, at that time, a crisp new thumbs down appears against virtually every single post [sometimes stretching back several pages on the posting history] by certain posters disliked by the aforementioned Itching One.

    I noticed an instance of th ...[text shortened]... row, all with the one thumbs down. I am not the only one this kind of thing seems to happen to.
    That's just sad. 😕
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