Originally posted by Red Night
Historians believe that an earlier document, no lost, called Q was a common source for the gospels of Matthew and Luke...since those books contained similiar events not mentioned in the first Gospel, Mark.

Some postulate that the lost book Q was a sayings book compiled by the Disciple Matthew and mentioned by some of the early christian writers.

I know about the Q document. I was asking him to back up his claim that the gospels were written within 70 years of the ascension. I think he got that wrong or intentionally lied to make his position look better.

Originally posted by Merk
Ahem, looking beyond your ignorance of the moons use as a symbol....

Note that Ramadan tracks a moon cycle.

Note also that easter is also based on the moons cycle. As are most calendars from that time whether Jewish, Muslim or Christian.

Originally posted by weirdboy120
Wow! Hmm resurrection is a fact huh... lol

BTW: I love your reasoning behind understanding the bible. So if you find some inconsistency within the Bible, then its you that is wrong. Its not the bible that is wrong but you! And the only reason you see an inconsistency is because you in the modern century with all your education and technology canno ...[text shortened]... our entire understanding is based off one rule and one rule only: the bible can never be wrong.

Please tell me the inconsistency you see in the Bible.

Originally posted by amannion
What's the evidence for the reality of this resurrection - other than contradictory accounts written after the fact?

How do you explain that he appeared to 500 people at the same time after his death? When that was written most of those 500 were still alive and verify that fact. How do you explain the difference in attitude of the disciples? After Jesus's death and before his resurrection they were terrified and locked in a room for fear that the same thing would happen to them. After his resurrection and the descension of the Holy Spirit they were no longer terrified and went to their deaths proclaiming the Gospel. Why would they die for something they thought was false? No one would die a horrific death (all of the 12 except John experienced a torturous death) if they knew what they were proclaiming was false. But you would die for something you knew for a fact to be true. They were in the unique position of knowing without doubt that their faith was true because they'd seen it with their own eyes.

Originally posted by reinfeld
..the arab moon cult is a descendent of a sumerian diety known as "sin"
whose symbol was the crescent moon...the sumerians are identified as the
first city civilization...

"Allah" is NOT a 'moon-god'

"And from among His Signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not bow down (prostrate) to the sun nor to the moon, but only bow down (prostrate) to "Allah" Who created them, if you (really) worship Him."
[Holy Quran 41:37]

The Christian acquaintance who sent me a copy of Morey's booklet also sent me five questions related to this subject. I will attempt to answer them below:

Question 1:
What is the significance of the crescent moon in Islam?

Answer:
The crescent moon and star often seen on mosques and Islamic archecture is actually a symbol of the last rulers of the Muslims called the Ottoman Empire. The Qur'ân answers this question before you asked it. Read this verse:

"They ask you about the new moons. Say: These are signs to mark fixed periods of time for mankind and for the pilgrimage."
[Holy Quran 2:189]

Question 2:
Why does Islam follow a lunar calendar?

Answer:
Jewish and early Christians also followed the lunar calendar as do many farmers even today. There are some very practical reasons for this. However, Islam makes it clear there is no worship of the moon, only that we use the moons shape and position to determine the months and occassions. In both the Bible and the Qur'ân religious festivals are regulated by the lunar calendar. Jews and Muslims have kept to these regulations which they believe to be from God. Modern day Christianity follows the solar calendar because it was instituted by the Roman emporer Constantine at the council of Nicaea in 325 A.D

Question 3:
Why is the fast of Ramadan marked by the appearance of the crescent moon?

Answer:
God commanded Muslims in the Qur'ân to fast from dawn to sunset during the month called Ramadan (see Qur'ân 2:185, 187). The beginning and end of the month is determined by the crescent (2:189) based on the instruction of God's Messenger, on whom be peace.

Why this method and not another is not for us to say but for God and His Messenger to prescribe. However, I find it an efficient method. It is a universally applicable method, and it allows for Ramadan to move through all the seasons. This allows believers to have the pleasure of worshipping God by fasting in all the various seasons: one year in the summer, some years later in the winter.


Question 4:
Why does the Quran place the Sabeans on the same level with Jews and Christians when scholars have clearly proven that the Sabeans were involved in the moon cult?

Answer:
The Quran not has placed the Sabeans on the same level with Jews and Christians. Perhaps you have in mind the following verse:

"Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians and Sabians, whoever believes in "Allah" and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord. On them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
[Holy Quran 2:62; also 5:69]
This verse, however, does not place the Sabeans on the same level as the Jews and Christians except in a particular context. The verse speaks of four distinct communities, and offers all four the opportunity to fear not nor grieve if only they would believe in "Allah" and the Last Day and do right. The four communities are:

The Believers (i.e., the Muslims)
The Jews
The Christians
The Sabeans

While they are all offered the same opportunity for improvement, nothing, is said in this verse about the validity of the existing faiths of these four communities. Otherwise the Jews and Christians who are criticized in the Quran for their deviations will not be placed on the same level with the believers. The matter becomes clear when you realise that believers here does not mean saved persons but those who ostensibly belong to the community of Muslims. They, as well as the other three groups, must do the following to be saved: believe in "Allah" (God) , believe in the Last Day, and do right. Doing right, according to the Quran, includes following every teaching of Muhammad.


Question 5:
Did the Meccans worship the true God since they recognized "Allah" ? Was "Allah" one of the gods of the Ka'bah? (Black Cube building in Mecca)
And if so, where did the Meccans derive the recognition and the name of "Allah" from?

Answer:
First, "Allah" was not one of the 360 idols which were in the Ka'abah, although Morey has claimed this without evidence. When the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) entered Makkah (Mecca) victorious he went into the Ka'bah and broke the idols therein.

Second, the word "Allah" has been used all along for the name of "God" in the Arabic Bible for Jews and Christians alike. The proof is easy to verify; simple go to any hotel or motel on the earth and look in the drawer next to the bed and take out the complimentary Bible, placed there by the Giddeons and then look on page 5 or 6 where they list the examples of translations they have made into other languages. The second example given is for Arabic speakers. The verse is from the Gospel of John, chapter 3, verse 16. Everyone knows this one; "For God so loved the world..." and the word in Arabic for "God" is "Allah." Then if you have a Bible in Arabic, look on page one in Genesis, and you will find the word "Allah" 17 times.

Originally posted by xxxviciousxxx
"Allah" is NOT a 'moon-god'

"And from among His Signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not bow down (prostrate) to the sun nor to the moon, but only bow down (prostrate) to "Allah" Who created them, if you (really) worship Him."
[Holy Quran 41:37]

The Christian acquaintance who sent me a copy of Morey's booklet also sent ...[text shortened]... sis, and you will find the word "Allah" 17 times.

the word in Arabic for "God" is "Allah." Then if you have a Bible in Arabic, look on page one in Genesis, and you will find the word "Allah" 17 times.

Does it explain anywhere in the Koran who Allah is? Or did the early readers of the Koran already know who Allah was before they read it?

Originally posted by chappy1
How do you explain that he appeared to 500 people at the same time after his death? When that was written most of those 500 were still alive and verify that fact. How do you explain the difference in attitude of the disciples? After Jesus's death and before his resurrection they were terrified and locked in a room for fear that the same thing would happen ...[text shortened]... of knowing without doubt that their faith was true because they'd seen it with their own eyes.

You base your claim on the state of mind of the disciples - they were scared, then they weren't. Where does this come from? Second hand accounts.
No one who was actually there wrote about it.
I can write whatever I like about a historical event - the Berlin Wall was built by the Easter Bunny. But of course this has no credibility since I wasn't there.
But wait you say, historians write about events they didn't witness all the time. That's true, but they use independent and verifiable sources to support their analysis of these past events.
Where's the independent and verifiable source for Jesus's resurrection?

Originally posted by xxxviciousxxx
"..... includes following every teaching of Muhammad....

Including have sex with 9 year old children? 😀

Originally posted by chappy1
Please tell me the inconsistency you see in the Bible.

Theres quite a few inconsistencies within the bible. Look at how much mark, mathew and luke differ from john. Even look at the differing accounts of what happened during the resurrection between mark, Mathew and luke, or just look at whether jesus was in egypt or not. All these glaring mistakes within the bible occurred because i cannot understand the bible right?

Originally posted by Merk
the word in Arabic for "God" is "Allah." Then if you have a Bible in Arabic, look on page one in Genesis, and you will find the word "Allah" 17 times.

Does it explain anywhere in the Koran who Allah is? Or did the early readers of the Koran already know who Allah was before they read it?

The first chapter merk!

Lord of all creation, master of the day of judgement. Many refs in Quran... Same God who created adam and eve etc. The One, the eternal.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Including have sex with 9 year old children? 😀

you posted this view in another thread so i respond in kind here.

Age of Aisha at time of marriage with Holy Prophet Muhammad

It is believed on the authority of some Hadith reports that the marriage ceremony (known as nikah, amounting to betrothal) of Aisha with the Holy Prophet Muhammad took place when she was six years of age, and that she joined the Holy Prophet as his wife three years later at the age of nine. We quote below from two such reports in Bukhari.

“It is reported from Aisha that she said: The Prophet entered into marriage with me when I was a girl of six … and at the time [of joining his household] I was a girl of nine years of age.”
“Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed [alone] for two years or so. He married Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.”

As to the authenticity of these reports, it may be noted that the compilers of the books of Hadith did not apply the same stringent tests when accepting reports relating to historical matters as they did before accepting reports relating to the practical teachings and laws of Islam. The reason is that the former type of report was regarded as merely of academic interest while the latter type of report had a direct bearing on the practical duties of a Muslim and on what was allowed to them and what was prohibited. Thus the occurrence of reports such as the above about the marriage of Aisha in books of Hadith, even in Bukhari, is not necessarily a proof of their credibility.

Determination of the true age of Aisha

It appears that Maulana Muhammad Ali was the first Islamic scholar directly to challenge the notion that Aisha was aged six and nine, respectively, at the time of her nikah and consummation of marriage. This he did in, at least, the following writings: his English booklet Prophet of Islam, his larger English book Muhammad, the Prophet, and in the footnotes in his voluminous Urdu translation and commentary of Sahih Bukhari entitled Fadl-ul-Bari, these three writings being published in the 1920s and 1930s.

Research subsequent to the time of Maulana Muhammad Ali has shown that she was older than this. An excellent short work presenting such evidence is the Urdu pamphlet Rukhsati kai waqt Sayyida Aisha Siddiqa ki umar (‘The age of Lady Aisha at the time of the start of her married life&rsquo😉 by Abu Tahir Irfani. Points 1 to 3 below have been brought to light in this pamphlet.

1. The famous classical historian of Islam, Ibn Jarir Tabari, wrote in his ‘History’:

“In the time before Islam, Abu Bakr married two women. The first was Fatila daughter of Abdul Uzza, from whom Abdullah and Asma were born. Then he married Umm Ruman, from whom Abdur Rahman and Aisha were born. These four were born before Islam.”
Being born before Islam means being born before the Call.

2. The compiler of the famous Hadith collection Mishkat al-Masabih, Imam Wali-ud-Din Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Khatib, who died 700 years ago, has also written brief biographical notes on the narrators of Hadith reports. He writes under Asma, the older daughter of Abu Bakr:
“She was the sister of Aisha Siddiqa, wife of the Holy Prophet, and was ten years older than her. … In 73 A.H. … Asma died at the age of one hundred years.”

This would make Asma 28 years of age in 1 A.H., the year of the Hijra, thus making Aisha 18 years old in 1 A.H. So Aisha would be 19 years old at the time of the consummation of her marriage, and 14 or 15 years old at the time of her nikah. It would place her year of birth at four or five years before the Call.

3. The same statement is made by the famous classical commentator of the Holy Quran, Ibn Kathir, in his book Al-bidayya wal-nihaya:
“Asma died in 73 A.H. at the age of one hundred years. She was ten years older than her sister Aisha.”

Apart from these three evidences, which are presented in the Urdu pamphlet referred to above, we also note that the birth of Aisha being a little before the Call is consistent with the opening words of a statement by her which is recorded four times in Bukhari. Those words are as follows:

“Ever since I can remember (or understand things) my parents were following the religion of Islam.”

This is tantamount to saying that she was born sometime before her parents accepted Islam but she can only remember them practising Islam. No doubt she and her parents knew well whether she was born before or after they accepted Islam, as their acceptance of Islam was such a landmark event in their life which took place just after the Holy Prophet received his mission from God. If she had been born after they accepted Islam it would make no sense for her to say that she always remembered them as following Islam. Only if she was born before they accepted Islam, would it make sense for her to say that she can only remember them being Muslims, as she was too young to remember things before their conversion.

This is consistent with her being born before the Call, and being perhaps four or five years old at the time of the Call, which was also almost the time when her parents accepted Islam.

Originally posted by xxxviciousxxx
"Allah" is NOT a 'moon-god'

"And from among His Signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not bow down (prostrate) to the sun nor to the moon, but only bow down (prostrate) to "Allah" Who created them, if you (really) worship Him."
[Holy Quran 41:37]

The Christian acquaintance who sent me a copy of Morey's booklet also sent ...[text shortened]... sis, and you will find the word "Allah" 17 times.

I want to thank you for your effort. I spent a lot of time in this forum and I got tired after a while, I hope you have more strength.

I just wanted to comment on one point, I agree with you in all other points,

Question 4:
Why does the Quran place the Sabeans on the same level with Jews and Christians when scholars have clearly proven that the Sabeans were involved in the moon cult?

I don't know where my Christians friend got the idea that Sabean is a moon cult. The following link talks about the Sabien mentioned in Quran , and I don't see any relation between this cult and moon worship. This cult is a pure monotheistic religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabians

This cult has a book that they relate it to Adam himself, which means they consider their book the oldest holy scripture, of course older than the bible. This cult still exist untill today in some parts of Aribia

So this question for me doesn't make any sense.

Thank you again,

Originally posted by xxxviciousxxx
you posted this view in another thread so i respond in kind here.

Age of Aisha at time of marriage with Holy Prophet Muhammad

It is believed on the authority of some Hadith reports that the marriage ceremony (known as nikah, amounting to betrothal) of Aisha with the Holy Prophet Muhammad took place when she was six years of age, and that she joi ...[text shortened]... ars old at the time of the Call, which was also almost the time when her parents accepted Islam.

We show someone that all his information is incorrect, and he has been brainwashed, the only thing he can do is to attack back. I don't think Rajk999 cares to read or know what say here.

Originally posted by Merk
the word in Arabic for "God" is "Allah." Then if you have a Bible in Arabic, look on page one in Genesis, and you will find the word "Allah" 17 times.

Does it explain anywhere in the Koran who Allah is? Or did the early readers of the Koran already know who Allah was before they read it?

(Nobel-Translation)
(2- Al-Baqarah)(255. Allâh! Lâ ilâha illa Huwa -none has the right to be worshipped but He-, the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists. Neither slumber, nor sleep overtake Him. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on earth. Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His Permission? He knows what happens to them -His creatures- in this world, and what will happen to them in the Hereafter . And they will never compass anything of His Knowledge except that which He wills. His Kursî extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. And He is the Most High, the Most Great. -This Verse 2:255 is called Ayat-ul-Kursî.-)

(20-Ta-Ha)(8. Allâh! Lâ ilâhla illa Huwa -none has the right to be worshipped but He-! To Him belong the Best Names.)

(20-Ta-Ha)(14. "Verily! I am Allâh! Lâ ilâha illa Ana -none has the right to be worshipped but I-, so worship Me, and perform As­Salât -Iqâmat-as-Salât- for My Remembrance.)

(59-Al-Hashr)(o 22 o)
(22. He is Allâh, than Whom there is Lâ ilâha illa Huwa -none has the right to be worshipped but He- the All-Knower of the unseen and the seen -open-. He is the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.)
(23. He is Allâh than Whom there is Lâ ilâha illa Huwa -none has the right to be worshipped but He- the King, the Holy, the One Free from all defects, the Giver of security, the Watcher over His creatures, the All-Mighty, the Compeller, the Supreme. Glory be to Allâh! -High is He- above all that they associate as partners with Him.)
(24. He is Allâh, the Creator, the Inventor of all things, the Bestower of forms. To Him belong the Best Names . All that is in the heavens and the earth glorify Him. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. )

-----------------
(7- Al-A'raf)(59. Indeed, We sent Nûh -Noah- to his people and he said: "O my people! Worship Allâh! You have no other Ilâh -God- but Him. -Lâ ilâha ill-Allâh: none has the right to be worshipped but Allâh-. Certainly, I fear for you the torment of a Great Day!"😉

(5-Al-Maidah)(72. Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allâh is the Messiah -'Iesa -Jesus--, son of Maryam -Mary-." But the Messiah -'Iesa -Jesus-- said: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord." Verily, whosoever sets up partners in worship with Allâh, then Allâh has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode . And for the Zâlimûn -polytheists and wrong­doers- there are no helpers.)

(29- Al-'Ankabut)(16. And -remember- Ibrâhim -Abraham- when he said to his people: "Worship Allâh -Alone-, and fear Him, that is better for you if you did but know.)

(11-Hud)(61. And to Thamûd -people, We sent- their brother Sâlih -Saleh-. He said: "O my people! Worship Allâh, you have no other Ilâh -God- but Him. He brought you forth from the earth and settled you therein, then ask forgiveness of Him and turn to Him in repentance. Certainly, my Lord is Near -to all by His Knowledge-, Responsive."😉

(16-An-Nahl)(36. And verily, We have sent among every Ummah -community, nation- a Messenger -proclaiming-: "Worship Allâh -Alone-, and avoid -or keep away from- Tâghût -all false deities, etc. i.e. do not worship Tâghût besides Allâh-." Then of them were some whom Allâh guided and of them were some upon whom the straying was justified. So travel through the land and see what was the end of those who denied -the truth-.)

-------------------

Is this enough....