Originally posted by UllrYou are talking about two different things, since the God of the Bible was never
And to confound things even more, if there is in fact a God (as in the Christian God) that created all that exists then who or what created God? It simply can't be answered by us at this time. Thus all of us: Christians, atheists, Muslims, heathens, and so on are all equally clueless.
created He was, is, and always will be the same, eternal. So if we are going to
talk about the universe that we agree is finite and try to compare that to God who
is not, it becomes an apples and orange discussion.
Kelly
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Originally posted by KellyJayIt admit, it's kind of hard to wrap my head around the concept of something or someone being eternal but it's as good an explanation as any I suppose.
You are talking about two different things, since the God of the Bible was never
created He was, is, and always will be the same, eternal. So if we are going to
talk about the universe that we agree is finite and try to compare that to God who
is not, it becomes an apples and orange discussion.
Kelly
Originally posted by josephw“…how can there be absolutes in a universe that COME about by random chance?...” (my emphasis)
Thanks to bbarr for helping to establish the fact that absolutes do in fact exist.
[b]"Don't be silly. I love absolutes. Here is one:
~(P&~P)."
Anyway, I was thinking about bio matrix(or is that biometrics?) and snow flakes or stripes on zebras.
Isn't it great to know that in this vast universe there are some things that will never change?( ...[text shortened]... niverse that came about by random chance?
Please reply. I can't wait to read them. 😉[/b]
I have rarely heard of any religious explanation NOR scientific explanation that says that says the start of the universe resulted from random chance with the exception of a few wild theories that I vaguely remember that basically say the universe came from another universe by random quantum events (highly speculative and not supported by good evidence but, who knows, one might be correct).
There is the big bang theory but that is only a theory of how the universe evolved from when it was tiny and certainly doesn’t say it came about by “chance”. In fact, if the general accepted interpretations of the physics equations are correct (and I am not saying it is; it may or may not be), it did not even “come” as you suggested above! That’s because if that interpretation is correct, there was no “before” the singularity and thus there was no “before” for the universe to “come” from; it merely existed at time zero.
So almost nobody, including most theists AND most atheists, are claiming the universe “came about by random chance”.
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Originally posted by KellyJayHow many atheists that are happy to give theists a free ride here? We are held to account for the origins of the universe, yet you can just happily say (by decree) your God always was and always will, without accepting the counter claim that in so far as it makes sense to talk about time, the same may be true for the universe?
You are talking about two different things, since the God of the Bible was never
created He was, is, and always will be the same, eternal. So if we are going to
talk about the universe that we agree is finite and try to compare that to God who
is not, it becomes an apples and orange discussion.
Kelly
This is hypocrisy pure and simple!
Originally posted by AgergYou're closer than you know. Either matter is eternal, or someone created it. There aren't any other choices.
How many atheists that are happy to give theists a free ride here? We are held to account for the origins of the universe, yet you can just happily say (by decree) your God always was and always will, without accepting the counter claim that in so far as it makes sense to talk about time, the same may be true for the universe?
This is hypocrisy pure and simple!
Originally posted by FreakyKBHBut so long as it makes sense to talk about time, one can assert that the universe was eternal and required no supernatural creator; "prior" to the big bang?...who knows??? perhaps this universe is just one little bubble on the soapy froth of an eternal multiverse, perhaps something else.
You're closer than you know. Either matter is eternal, or someone created it. There aren't any other choices.
My point is that if you reject the claim that our universe did not need a creator then with the same vigour I reject your claim that your creator did not need a creator. Just raising ones chin high with a pompous smile barking that God is a special case doesn't cut it.
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Originally posted by FreakyKBHThen similarly the 'starting point' is where we find the creator of the creator...(where the scope of 'the' in your notion of creator is limited to that which created the universe we humans reside in, 'the' in the creator I am interested has it's scope limited to the supernatural domain your creator resides)
I am a creator, not the creator. As stated, either matter is eternal, or it was created; it had to start at some point. The starting point is where we find the creator.
In beginning...
and who would that be?
Originally posted by FreakyKBHyes there is!
You're closer than you know. Either matter is eternal, or someone created it. There aren't any other choices.
What is wrong with claiming matter is not eternal and nobody created it?
Its creation could be purely as a result of natural forces.
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Originally posted by Andrew HamiltonOr purely as a result of the laws of the universe.
yes there is!
What is wrong with claiming matter is not eternal and nobody created it?
Its creation could be purely as a result of natural forces.
As far as I know, matter is spontaneously created and annihilated all over the universe all the time. There is no known cause for this (other than the laws of physics) and no reason to think there must be a cause.
Anyone claiming that causation is a law of the universe must first prove it, as it certainly is not obvious nor is a known fact.
Even worse, applying causation to the universe as a whole is not only meaningless as 'causation' depends on dimensions for its very definition, but also totally unwarranted.
Originally posted by Andrew HamiltonPerhaps I was being unclear. The universe, all of what is known as reality, the so-called space-time/matter/energy consortium operates under discernible rules--- which is not to say that these rules exist independent of the universe: they are the rules of stuff and are only detectable in the presence of said stuff.
yes there is!
What is wrong with claiming matter is not eternal and nobody created it?
Its creation could be purely as a result of natural forces.
A math equation simply describes what's happening with stuff; it certainly doesn't force the action, let alone make the stuff being described regardless of the action. Conversely, the rules of the universe are simply reports of what's happening, descriptions of agents, objects, forces, etc.. They can do nothing more than report/describe in understandable terms action. They cannot act, themselves.
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Originally posted by FreakyKBHHow do you think any of that relates to the claim that there is nothing wrong with claiming matter is not eternal and nobody created it?
Perhaps I was being unclear. The universe, all of what is known as reality, the so-called space-time/matter/energy consortium operates under discernible rules--- which is not to say that these rules exist independent of the universe: they are the rules of stuff and are only detectable in the presence of said stuff.
A math equation simply describes what thing more than report/describe in understandable terms action. They cannot act, themselves.