1. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    25 May '12 21:25
    "The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or set of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men. No man's opinion is expressed in The Watchtower. God feeds his own people, and surely God uses those who love and serve him according to his own will. Those who oppose The Watchtower are not capable of discerning the truth that God is giving to the children of his organization, and this is the very strongest proof that such opposers are not of God's organization." [Watchtower 1931 Nov 1 p.327 ]

    So if no man's opinion is expressed in the Watchtower, then its either Satans or Gods. If its Gods opinion then, by definition it is divinely inspired.
  2. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    25 May '12 21:472 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    If i quote a Biblical verse in the watchtower as frequently happens and I state that's its
    taken from the word of God, as frequently happens, how does that make the
    watchtower inspired, after all it contains Gods opinion as espoused in the watchtower
    having the Bible as its basis. If i quote a verse here on the forum and claim that its
    Gods thoughts, does that make my post inspired, LOL, you getting pawned here as
    well, Id retire from the circus if i were you.
  3. Joined
    29 Dec '08
    Moves
    6788
    25 May '12 22:07
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    If i quote a Biblical verse in the watchtower as frequently happens and I state that's its
    taken from the word of God, as frequently happens, how does that make the
    watchtower inspired, after all it contains Gods opinion as espoused in the watchtower
    having the Bible as its basis. If i quote a verse here on the forum and claim that its
    Gods ...[text shortened]... post inspired, LOL, you getting pawned here as
    well, Id retire from the circus if i were you.
    Are you saying that the statement "No man's opinion is expressed in The Watchtower" (Reportedly stated in Watchtower 1931 Nov 1 p.327) is a man's opinion expressed in the Watchtower?

    If so, that's a very clever way to yield the point. 🙂
  4. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
    Brisbane,QLD
    Joined
    11 Apr '09
    Moves
    91563
    25 May '12 23:20
    It's amazing that some out there think that some words in some books (but mainly the bible, and for some ONLY the bible) are written by God.
    I know that they weren't actually written by"God" but "divinely inspired" in a some men to write "Gods" words.
    (Have I got it right so far?)

    And the only thing these men have in common (which is of note to me) is :

    1. They are all old. Ancient really.
    2. They are all mentioned in the bible somewhere.
    3. Their accounts are verifiable through the nodding and winking of the readers of those books which were all male (I believe that men were the only ones privy to that info at that time in our history). Ie the bits that actually got into the bible was done so by this team of editors.

    Anyway , Watchtower came centuries after all this bible business was conceived, but if you think about it rationally and logically you cant help but think that bible was written with the writer's agendas firmly woven into the info this making it misinfo(rmation) and at times disinfo(rmation) . The fact that JC's words and deeds are also in there just lends that much more credibility ,(and all that comes with it), to the other stuff, thereby setting an agenda for the whole movement for god knows how long to come. I wonder what their (the writers and the 'people' they represent were expecting 2000 years and if that was above or below their expectations (lol) ), next move will be, if any.
  5. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
    Fort Gordon
    Joined
    24 Jan '11
    Moves
    12694
    25 May '12 23:47
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    If i quote a Biblical verse in the watchtower as frequently happens and I state that's its
    taken from the word of God, as frequently happens, how does that make the
    watchtower inspired, after all it contains Gods opinion as espoused in the watchtower
    having the Bible as its basis. If i quote a verse here on the forum and claim that its
    Gods ...[text shortened]... post inspired, LOL, you getting pawned here as
    well, Id retire from the circus if i were you.
    "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an "end to the world," even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The "end" did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? Missing from such people were God's truths and the evidence that he was guiding and using them." Awake! 1968 Oct 8 p.23

    It is ironic that the Society condemns other religions in such manner when it has spent decade's actively predicting wrong 'end of the world' dates that did not occur, such as 1914 being the year for Armageddon and 1925 being the start of the earthly resurrection, or more recently that the battle of Jehovah would be within the twentieth century.

    The Watchtower Society goes as far as to call itself a prophet of God, comparing themselves to the prophets of old. This is a significant assertion when compared to the accuracy of Watchtower doctrine and the predictions about future dates.


    "This was the test - the coming down of fire; and the fulfillment exactly on time has proved that Pastor Russell was one of God's great reformers and prophets." Watchtower 1919 Oct 1 p.297

    "For an answer, people should listen to the plain preaching by the remnant prefigured by Jeremiah, for these preach to men the present-day fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecies. Who made them a prophet to speak with the authority that they claim? Well, who made Jeremiah a prophet?" Watchtower 1959 Jan 15 pp.39-41

    "Those who do not read can hear, for God has on earth today a prophetlike organization, just as he did in the days of the early Christian congregation." Watchtower 1964 Oct 1 p.601

    In 1972, the Watchtower described itself as "the modern-day "prophet"".

    "So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come?
    IDENTIFYING THE "PROPHET"
    These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? ... This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses. ... Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. Thus this group of anointed followers of Jesus Christ, doing a work in Christendom paralleling Ezekiel's work among the Jews, were manifestly the modern-day Ezekiel, the "prophet" commissioned by Jehovah to declare the good news of God's Messianic kingdom and to give warning to Christendom." Watchtower 1972 Apr 1 pp.197-199 'They Shall Know that a Prophet Was Among Them'

    It is difficult to comprehend how the Watchtower could make such assertions in light of its string of failed prophecies regarding the end of the world and what Deuteronomy 18 says regarding such prophets.


    In 1931, Rutherford justified the failure of the 1914 predictions through the claim that prophecy could not be correctly understood prior to 1918. It was only after Jesus arrival at "his temple in 1918" that Jesus provided the Watchtower with accurate understanding.


    "... the faithful had waited, expecting the 1914 to mark the complete fulfilment of the prophecy. They had expected Armageddon to follow immediately after 1914 and the church to be glorified. Of course it was not due time until after 1918 to have a clearer vision of the prophecy. There were some curious speculations indulged in by them, which were mere guesses, of course, and therefore not true, because it was not God's time for them to understand. It was after 1914 that 'the vision spoke and did not lie', to wit, after the coming of the Lord to his temple in 1918" Vindication p.24

    Yet in the very same book, Rutherford proves that his predictions and interpretations are also mere guesses. For instance, page 21 tells us that it was in "1925, when "organized religions" were plainly seen to be in bondage to Satan", and that Daniel's vision of a river foreshadowed 1926; teachings no longer believed.

    It is interesting to note that the Watchtower Index 1935 to 1985 contains only 3 references to Deuteronomy 18:20

    The Watchtower Index 1986 to 2006 contains no references to this verse at all. It seems this verse touches a nerve in Watchtower history.


    http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/jehovahs-prophet.php
  6. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
    Brisbane,QLD
    Joined
    11 Apr '09
    Moves
    91563
    25 May '12 23:593 edits
    Lets not single out the Watchtower society too much ay guys?

    There are many way worse than the JW's.
    I say this because they are peaceful in their dealings with almost everything. This puts them on a par with true buddhists - a point that should not be overlooked or dismissed too easily.

    Now with that in mind carry on ... 😉
  7. Joined
    19 Jul '08
    Moves
    77354
    26 May '12 00:331 edit
    Perhaps if one is wanting to learn what a FALSE PROPHET is by definition, you would want to read this.


    False Prophets

    Definition: Individuals and organizations proclaiming messages that they attribute to a superhuman source but that do not originate with the true God and are not in harmony with his revealed will.

    How can true prophets and false ones be identified?

    True prophets make known their faith in Jesus, but more is required than claiming to preach in his name
    1 John 4:1-3: “Test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world. You gain the knowledge of the inspired expression from God by this: Every inspired expression that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God, but every inspired expression that does not confess Jesus does not originate with God.”
    Matt. 7:21-23: “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name . . . ?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.”

    True prophets speak in the name of God, but merely claiming to represent him is not enough
    Deut. 18:18-20: “A prophet I shall raise up for them from the midst of their brothers, like you [like Moses]; and I shall indeed put my words in his mouth, and he will certainly speak to them all that I shall command him. And it must occur that the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name, I shall myself require an account from him. However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die.” (Compare Jeremiah 14:14; 28:11, 15.)

    Jesus said: “I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me I speak these things.” (John 8:28) He said: “I have come in the name of my Father.” (John 5:43) Jesus also said: “He that speaks of his own originality is seeking his own glory.”—John 7:18.

    If any individuals or organizations claim to represent God but decline to use God’s personal name, and make it a practice to express their own opinions on matters, are they measuring up to this important qualification of a true prophet?
    Ability to perform “great signs,” or “miracles,” is not necessarily proof of a true prophet.

    Matt. 24:24: “False Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs [“miracles,” TEV] and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.”
    2 Thess. 2:9, 10: “The lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved.”
    On the other hand, Moses performed miracles at Jehovah’s direction. (Ex. 4:1-9) Jehovah also empowered Jesus to perform miracles. (Acts 2:22) But more than the miracles gave evidence that God had truly sent them.

    What true prophets foretell comes to pass, but they may not understand just when or how it will be
    Dan. 12:9: “Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of the end.”
    1 Pet. 1:10, 11: “The prophets . . . kept on investigating what particular season or what sort of season the spirit in them was indicating concerning Christ when it was bearing witness beforehand about the sufferings for Christ and about the glories to follow these.”
    1 Cor. 13:9, 10: “We have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with.”
    Prov. 4:18: “The path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.”
    The apostles and other early Christian disciples had certain wrong expectations, but the Bible does not classify them with the “false prophets.”—See Luke 19:11; John 21:22, 23; Acts 1:6, 7.
    Nathan the prophet encouraged King David to go ahead with what was in his heart regarding the building of a house for Jehovah’s worship. But later Jehovah told Nathan to inform David that he was not the one who would build it. Jehovah did not reject Nathan for what he had said earlier but continued to use him because he humbly corrected the matter when Jehovah made it plain to him.—1 Chron. 17:1-4, 15.

    The pronouncements of a true prophet promote true worship and are in harmony with God’s revealed will
    Deut. 13:1-4: “In case a prophet or a dreamer of a dream arises in your midst and does give you a sign or a portent, and the sign or the portent does come true of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us walk after other gods, whom you have not known, and let us serve them,’ you must not listen to the words of that prophet or to the dreamer of that dream, because Jehovah your God is testing you to know whether you are loving Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul. After Jehovah your God you should walk, and him you should fear, and his commandments you should keep, and to his voice you should listen, and him you should serve, and to him you should cling.”

    Since the Bible says that “a friend of the world” is an enemy of God, are clergymen who urge their parishioners to get involved in the affairs of the world promoting true worship? (Jas. 4:4; 1 John 2:15-17) The true God said that the nations “will have to know that I am Jehovah,” and the Bible states that God would take out of the nations “a people for his name,” but are religious organizations that minimize the importance of using God’s personal name acting in harmony with this revealed will of God? (Ezek. 38:23; Acts 15:14) Jesus taught his followers to pray for God’s Kingdom, and the Bible cautions against putting one’s trust in earthling men, so are clergymen or political organizations that urge people to place their confidence in human rulership true prophets?—Matt. 6:9, 10; Ps. 146:3-6; compare Revelation 16:13, 14.

    True prophets and the false can be recognized by the fruitage manifest in their lives and the lives of those who follow them
    Matt. 7:15-20: “Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will recognize them. . . . Every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit . . . Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.”
    What characterizes their way of life? “The works of the flesh are . . . fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. . . . Those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom. On the other hand, the fruitage of [God’s] spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.”—Gal. 5:19-23; see also 2 Peter 2:1-3.

    Have not Jehovah’s Witnesses made errors in their teachings?

    Jehovah’s Witnesses do not claim to be inspired prophets. They have made mistakes. Like the apostles of Jesus Christ, they have at times had some wrong expectations.—Luke 19:11; Acts 1:6.
    The Scriptures provide time elements related to Christ’s presence, and Jehovah’s Witnesses have studied these with keen interest. (Luke 21:24; Dan. 4:10-17) Jesus also described a many-featured sign that would tie in with the fulfillment of time prophecies to identify the generation that would live to see the end of Satan’s wicked system of things. (Luke 21:7-36) Jehovah’s Witnesses have pointed to evidence in fulfillment of this sign. It is true that the Witnesses have made mistakes in their understanding of what would occur at the end of certain time periods, but they have not made the mistake of losing faith or ceasing to be watchful as to fulfillment of Jehovah’s purposes. They have continued to keep to the fore in their thinking the counsel given by Jesus: “Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.”—Matt. 24:42.
    Matters on which corrections of viewpoint have been needed have been relatively minor when compared with the vital Bible truths that they have discerned and publicized. Among these are the following: Jehovah is the only true God. Jesus Christ is not part of a Trinitarian godhead but is the only-begotten Son of God. Redemption from sin is possible only through faith in Christ’s ransom sacrifice. The holy spirit is not a person but is Jehovah’s active force, and its fruitage must be evident in the lives of true worshipers. The human soul is not immortal, as the ancient pagans claimed; it dies, and the hope for future life is in the resurrection. God’s permission of wickedness has been because of the issue of universal sovereignty. God’s Kingdom is the only hope for mankind. Since 1914 we have been living in the last days of the global wicked system of things. Only 144,000 faithful Christians will be kings and priests with Christ in heaven, whereas the rest of obedient mankind will receive eternal life on a paradise earth.
    Another factor to consider regarding the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses is this: Have these truly uplifted people morally? Are those who adhere to these teachings outstanding in their communities because of their honesty? Is their family life beneficially influenced by applying these teachings? Jesus said that his disciples would be readily identified because of having love among themselves. (John 13:35) Is this quality outstanding among Jehovah’s Witnesses? We let the facts speak for themselves.
  8. Joined
    29 Dec '08
    Moves
    6788
    26 May '12 01:27
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Lets not single out the Watchtower society too much ay guys?

    There are many way worse than the JW's.
    I say this because they are peaceful in their dealings with almost everything. This puts them on a par with true buddhists - a point that should not be overlooked or dismissed too easily.

    Now with that in mind carry on ... 😉
    My discomfort with what you say comes from two sources:

    1. You specify "true" buddhists. We all know, or should know, the uses of the No True Scotsman fallacy.
    2. I am not by any means very knowledgeable about this, but the treatment by JW's, under the auspices of its organization, of JW's who fall away from faith, does not have a reputation that I like. My Catholic background makes my memory of the fear I had when thinking of the possibility of excommunication, come to me. It is truly terrible.

    I don't claim that these are reasons to single out the Watchtower society, they are just reasons that I am not comfortable with cutting them slack for the reasons you state.
  9. SubscriberFMF
    Main Poster
    This Thread
    Joined
    28 Oct '05
    Moves
    29835
    26 May '12 01:42
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    If i quote a verse here on the forum and claim that its
    Gods thoughts, does that make my post inspired, LOL, you getting pawned here as
    well, Id retire from the circus if i were you.
    A couple of months ago galveston75 claimed that The Watchtower's writers are inspired in the same way as the bible's writers were inspired.
  10. Joined
    16 Feb '08
    Moves
    86320
    26 May '12 06:13
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    If i quote a Biblical verse in the watchtower as frequently happens and I state that's its
    taken from the word of God, as frequently happens, how does that make the
    watchtower inspired, after all it contains Gods opinion as espoused in the watchtower
    having the Bible as its basis. If i quote a verse here on the forum and claim that its
    Gods ...[text shortened]... post inspired, LOL, you getting pawned here as
    well, Id retire from the circus if i were you.
    Of all that the governing body of the JW organisation has published (not directly quoted from the Bible) in Awake, is it all truth?
  11. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    26 May '12 09:50
    Originally posted by JS357
    Are you saying that the statement "No man's opinion is expressed in The Watchtower" (Reportedly stated in Watchtower 1931 Nov 1 p.327) is a man's opinion expressed in the Watchtower?

    If so, that's a very clever way to yield the point. 🙂
    you seem to be missing the point, the assertion is that we have claimed inspiration,
    clearly there is no evidence that we have ever claimed that the watchtower magazine is
    inspired, sating that it does not contain any mans opinion, is not a claim of inspiration
    the same as if i cite a Biblical verse in a post and claim that it contains no mans
    opinion, otherwise my post would be considered inspired according to the flawed logic
    of the OP. Ok you might cite that 'it contains no mans opinion', as a potentially self
    incriminating reference to an actual mans opinion, but it does not address the actual
    assertion that we have claimed inspiration, does it.
  12. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    26 May '12 10:01
    Originally posted by FMF
    A couple of months ago galveston75 claimed that The Watchtower's writers are inspired in the same way as the bible's writers were inspired.
    where is the quotation, you have been asked by the Gman and me to produce it for
    even if the Gman has made the mistake of claiming inspiration for the watchtower,
    he will retract it, for the watchtower magazine and the publishers themselves have
    never claimed either infallibility, making divegester arguments with regard to 1914
    more ludicrous than ever if that is possible and Rajks assertion that we have
    claimed inspiration equally as tabloid in nature. Look how both of your friends, Rajk
    and divejeseter have been caught red handed in the past, posting partial quotations
    and excerpts from articles they have not read, which were found to have distorted
    the truth and misrepresented the actual intent of the article and you have been led
    into advocating such distributable and dishonest practices by aligning yourself with
    them, it does not speak highly of you FMF nor of any claims you have with regard to
    truthfulness, lack of bias, lack of prejudice and objectivity. If you value your
    reputation, I would distance myself from these two clowns.
  13. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    26 May '12 10:03
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Lets not single out the Watchtower society too much ay guys?

    There are many way worse than the JW's.
    I say this because they are peaceful in their dealings with almost everything. This puts them on a par with true buddhists - a point that should not be overlooked or dismissed too easily.

    Now with that in mind carry on ... 😉
    on a par with true Buddhists, awesome, recognition at last!
  14. SubscriberFMF
    Main Poster
    This Thread
    Joined
    28 Oct '05
    Moves
    29835
    26 May '12 10:29
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    where is the quotation, you have been asked by the Gman and me to produce it for even if the Gman has made the mistake of claiming inspiration for the watchtower, he will retract it...
    galveston75 has, in fact ignored me on this matter. If "he will retract it" anyway, what does it matter?
  15. Joined
    16 Feb '08
    Moves
    86320
    26 May '12 11:47
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    where is the quotation, you have been asked by the Gman and me to produce it for
    even if the Gman has made the mistake of claiming inspiration for the watchtower,
    he will retract it, for the watchtower magazine and the publishers themselves have
    never claimed either infallibility, making divegester arguments with regard to 1914
    more ludicrous ...[text shortened]... and objectivity. If you value your
    reputation, I would distance myself from these two clowns.
    The point you seem to be missing is that the JW prophesies being false is evidence that the prophets are in fact 'false prophets'. You would be better off sticking with Galveston and claiming that Awake is indeed inspired of God.
Back to Top