Offending others

Originally posted by twhitehead
Also, it is my belief that when people are persecuted or killed for saying something it is often because their message is in conflict with someone else's beliefs/desires and not because the particular offensive message is the truth or comes from God whereas you seem to be implying (without evidence) that when the message is the truth then people are more likely to be offended.[/b]

You nailed it on the head!! The message they gave conflicted with others beliefs/desires which was ingrained in the message of truth that they gave.

John 15:18 "If the world hate you, you know that it hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of this world; but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, the servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. But all those things will they do to you for my names sake, because they know not him that sent me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they had not had sin; but now they have no cloke for their sin. He that hates me hates my Father also. If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin, but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. But this comes to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE."

So what is the truth that they hated you may ask?

"John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me."

Pretty offensive stuff no? How dare he say that it is his way or the highway? Who does he think he is?

For those of faith the question should be asked, "Have you offended someone today?"

Originally posted by whodey
There is historical evidence of the lives the disciples lived and died that I gave on another thread. Historically, there is evidence that they went throughout the world to preach the gospel as evidence by such facts as the nation of Armenia becoming the first Christian nation on earth shortly after the time of Christ. I suppose that you could say that they ...[text shortened]... killed for other reasons other than their message. However, I think this to be highly unlikely.

Again it comes down to something you think and not something you have any evidence for whatsoever. Do you have any reference of any kind to the charges presented at any of the deaths of the disciples?

Do you get the point I made about the difference between an opposing view and the truth. For example, if I tell a creationist that evolution took place he would be just as offended as if I said that the spaghetti monster made man. To him they are simply opposing views and will be equally offended by both.

Christians and evangelists of other faiths often get into trouble when they convert some people and those who have not been converted are not happy about the change. If for example you converted one of my family members and as a result that family member started disassociating his/herself with me on the grounds that I am not Christian then I will blame you. Also anyone who is seen as teaching something contrary to the customs is taken as causing offense.
Also evangelism of any kind usually results in a challenge to the authority of the local leaders (political or religious) as the new religious leader gains power. As was pointed out Jesus was crucified for being a threat to authority not for telling the truth.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Again it comes down to something you think and not something you have any evidence for whatsoever. Do you have any reference of any kind to the charges presented at any of the deaths of the disciples?

Do you get the point I made about the difference between an opposing view and the truth. For example, if I tell a creationist that evolution took place h ...[text shortened]... s was pointed out Jesus was crucified for being a threat to authority not for telling the truth.

It is true that people are offended by various things such as social customs being violated or having opposing views or a percieved threat to a political/religious power base. However, what offenses would cause one to be murdered?

I have no doubts that perhaps the thought of Christianity competing with other religions and/or being subversive to the state are the main reasons for murdering them. For example, in the time of Christ it was not the average sinner who sought to kill Christ, rather, it was the religious leaders who sought to snuff him out. Specifically, it was the Jewish relgious leaders who sought to kill him on the grounds of blasphemy. Why was this? According to the Bible we can form a general picture.

1) Christ routinely confronted the religious leaders and called those who were hypocrites, hypocrites. The religious leaders spoke of the Torah but lived lives apart from its teachings and he publically called them on it. Such was the rage he generated in them by not only exposing thier sin, but doing so publically.

2) Christ had a following that I am sure was seen to be a threat to the relgious Jewish establishment of the time. Such a following might diminish or even overthrow the power base of the religious leaders of the day.

3) Christ made statements that reflected that he was the Son of God. This last statement is the excuse they nailed him to the cross with. If he was who he was claimed to be he was endanger of being accused of blasphemy. Again, this offended none other than the relgious leaders of the day. Here we have someone who publically exposed the hypocrisy of the religious leaders and then says he is the Son of God who is saying these things. In effect, they were either to accept that God condemned them because the Son of God said that their lifestyles were corrupt or reject him as a fraud by not being the Son of God, thus sparing themselves the prospect that God condemned them. The bottom line, however, was that they loved the perks of their lifestyles, such as being held in high regard as a religious leader, having a good income, etc, etc, more than the source of truth that they studied in the Torah and taught the people.

In terms of Roman persecution, I do not see that they were at all worried about the man Jesus Christ. Had it not been for the relgious leaders insistance that he be killed, he never would have been crucified. For the Romans, it was all about damage control. What damage did Christ inflict upon them? What uprisings did he generate against them? In fact, he taught his followers to love their enemies. For the Romans, they tended to shy away from what they saw as silly religious practices in the holy land and focused more on seeking to quench disturbances and uprisings that may put a strain on control of their empire. Therefore, I view the capitulation of Pilate as being the later. He simply wanted to quench the rage within the crowd by offering up Christ so that they would not in turn protest and riot. He had no thoughts that Christ was challenging Roman rule. After all, Christ told him that his kingdom was not of this world.

Originally posted by whodey
Perhaps but it is the truth nonetheless. Consider that before the time of Constantine, Christianity flourished peaceably for over 300 years!! Now compare it to a religion like Islam which was mired in violence as you have pointed out from the begining until present. Why do you suppose this is?

I don't know. Possibly times had changed. When Islam rose "Christendom" was already an imperialistic and aggressive group of nations.

Actually it looks like the Germanic tribes were kicking people around what would become Christendom. The Byzantines were imperialistic though. Maybe the Christian aggressiveness tradition is a combination of Germanic, Roman and Middle Eastern aggressiveness.

Originally posted by whodey
Why is God's message to manking over the centuries so offensive? Why is truth so offensive? Why is it so devisive? Don't believe me? Here is what Christ said.

Luke 11:49 "Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will slay and persecute. That the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, whic ...[text shortened]... ates? Why were they seen a such threats? What in their message proved to be so incendiary?

Balls! Who said that that is what christ actually said? How do we know, and WHO CARES!?