on jesus' divinity

Originally posted by checkbaiter
1 Cor 15:28
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the [b]Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
NKJV[/b]

Have you considered three "offices", rather than three "persons"? If you consider these scriptures in this light it is possible to view a trinity of manifestations, levels of authority and dispensations of revelation of the person of God.

Originally posted by roigam

(Matthew 28:18) Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.
Who gave Jesus his authority?

God the Father has given all authority to the crucified, resurrected and exalted Godman - Jesus.

"Therefore also God highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name." (Phil 2:9)

Did you see that? Jesus is bestowed with "the name which is above every name."

It goes on - "That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those which are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, And every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (2:10,11)

(Daniel 7:13, 14) “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.

Have you ever noticed the resemblance of this Ancient of Days in Daniel and the One like the Son of Man in Revelation?

Compare:

Daniel 7:9 - "I watched until thrones were set, And the Ancient of Days sat down. His clothing was like white snow, and the hair of His head was like pure wool; ....

Revelation 1:12,13 - "And I turned to see the voice that spoke with me; and when I turned, I saw seven golden lampstands,

And in the midst of the lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment reaching to the feet, and girded about at the breats with a golden girdle.

And His head and hair were a white as white wool , as snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire; And His feet were like shining bronze, as having been fired in a furnace."

Praise the Lord! This is the Ancient of Days come as the Son of Man in incarnation.

His hair being white speaks of His being ancient. White hair signifies great age (Job 15:10). The ancientness of the Lord Jesus Christ is depicted in His hair being white like that of the Ancient of Days.

His hair being as "white wool" signifies his ancientness issues from the nature of life. In His eternal life His uncreated life the incarnate Godman - "the Son of Man" is not old but is living and ancient from His eternal life.

His hair being "as white wool, as snow" speaks of His coming from heaven as snow comes from the sky above. This eternal One's source is from heaven and from His eternal nature. His ancientness is not out of Him being old, but heavenly, not earthly.

We saw the Son of Man being brought before the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7:13

"I watched in the night visions, And there with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming;

And He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near to Him. And to Him was given dominion, glory, and a kingdom." (Dan. 7:13,14a)

This is a scene of Christ coming to the Father in ascension. He is coming with the clouds to God the Father after His death and resurrection and ascending up in a cloud to heaven.

I use to think this was Christ second coming. But I believe this is not a scene of the second coming but of Christ ascending to the Father to receive a kingdom.

In His ascension Christ as the Son of Man is before the throne of God to receive dominion and a kingdom. After He receives the kingdom from God, He will come back to rule over the entire world.

"He said therefore, A certain man of noble birth went to a distant country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return." (Luke 19:12)

"And when he came back, having received the kingdom, he commanded that those slaves to whom he had given the money should be called to him so that he might know what they had gained by doing business." (v.15)

The resurrected Son of Man was given all authority in heaven and earth. a MAN is on the throne of the universe. And in ascension He went away to receive from the Father this kingdom. We look for His return. And He will then deal with His saved servants, not according to their eternal redemption which has been settled, but to the reward of the kingdom for their doing "business" with His riches.

(Jesus is called "son of man" over 80 times in the Chrisitan Greek Scriptures.)

It seems to have been the favored title Jesus Himself used.

In Revelation this Son of Man informs us that He is the eternal God Jehovah who is the First and the Last -

"And when I saw Him [this Son of Man] I fell at His feet as dead; and He placed His right hand on me, saying, Do not fear; I am the First and the Last and the living One; and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Rev. 1:17,18)

This Son of Man is the incarnate Jehovah who said in He was the First and the Last -

Isaiah 44:6 - "Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts, I am the First and the Last, And apart from Me there is no God."

Isaiah 48:12 - "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, whom I called; I am He; I am the First, I am also the Last."

The incarnate God - the Son of Man's feet have walked through the furnace of suffering as a man to accomplish eternal redemption and sit upon the eternal throne of God as the incarnate, crucified and resurrected Man - God and Man mingled forever.

Originally posted by divegeester
Have you considered three "offices", rather than three "persons"? If you consider these scriptures in this light it is possible to view a trinity of manifestations, levels of authority and dispensations of revelation of the person of God.

Yes I have. However, after many years of study and listening to various teaching, my personal conclusion is there is one God(also known as the Father or the Holy Spirit) and one Lord (Jesus, the son of God).
The bible refers to God at times as the Holy Spirit, and at times the Father. Many biased translators use holy spirit(the gift) as Holy Spirit (God).

There are not three persons, just two. God who is over all, and Jesus at his right hand. God's gift to Jesus for his obedience was giving him a position of authority over the church, and everything else. But as the verse says, God is "excepted". He is subject to God the father.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

There are not three persons, just two. God who is over all, and Jesus at his right hand. God's gift to Jesus for his obedience was giving him a position of authority over the church, and everything else. But as the verse says, God is "excepted". He is subject to God the father.

Checkbaiter, isn't this all objective? Isn't this only outward and objective ?

You end up with God - out there objectively, which of course is truth.
And you end up with the Son of God - out there objectively, which also is truth.

But what about the Person living within the lovers of Jesus ? The "Person" (for lack of any better human language word) is not only objective but very subjective - living in those who receive Christ.

Where in your view is there room for the subjective experience of the One dispensed INTO the believers as the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, the Another Comforter, and Paraclete?

This "Person" is dispensed into the innermost being of the believers to be one with them. This is the Father and the Son finally REACHING man in the most subjective union and mingling.

Am I right?

Originally posted by sonship

There are not three persons, just two. God who is over all, and Jesus at his right hand. God's gift to Jesus for his obedience was giving him a position of authority over the church, and everything else. But as the verse says, God is "excepted". He is subject to God the father.

Checkbaiter, isn't this all objective? Isn't this only out ...[text shortened]... the Son finally REACHING man in the most subjective union and mingling.

Am I right?

No, it is not a person. The gift of holy spirit is the the power of God.
God can only give of himself, what He is, spirit.
Wind is a force with great power, but never considered a person. The same is holy spirit, the gift of God. It has 9 manifestations, which every believer with faith can operate.
Erroneously many Christians think speaking in tongues is a "gift", but it is not. The gift is the holy spirit that resides in every believer. Speaking in tongues (S.I.T.) is a manifestation of the gift.
Just as the Swiss army knife is one, it has many functions.
The gift of holy spirit is given to equip the believer. It would be difficult to function as a Christian without the manifestations of holy spirit.

In the Epistles, Romans, Ephesians, etc., notice the theme here...

Rom 1:7
To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
NKJV

1 Cor 1:3

3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
NKJV

Eph 1:1-2

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
NKJV

Phil 1:2

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
NKJV

Do you see what is missing here? Where is the greeting from the supposed "person" of holy spirit? Do you suppose he is rude?

In the book of Revelation, God is shown as ruling, his Son sits on the throne with him also ruling, but where does holy spirit sit? Why is "he" not mentioned? Because the "he' is an "it".
Holy spirit is the power of God.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

No, it is not a person. The gift of holy spirit is the the power of God.

The Holy Spirit is not only the power of God. He is also the life of God. And that is why He is called - "the Spirit of life" (Rom. 8:2).

Paul says "For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus". So the power of God there is the very divine life. What could be more subjective to God than His own life?

But the New Testament also says that Christ is "the power of God " -

" ... Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God" (1 Cor. 1:24)

We do not say Christ is not a Person simply because He too is described as "the power of God".

God can only give of himself, what He is, spirit.

The Spirit of life has to be God distributed to man as a Person who can unite and mingle with our person. In fact Jesus Christ became the divine life giving Spirit to give Himself to the saved -

"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) For Jesus to be "a life giving Spirit" is for the Triune God to give Himself to the saved person to be their life - their eternal life.

The Holy Spirit - the Spirit of life - the life giving Spirit is also (for lack of any better human language word) a Person. Of course He brings power to. But He is not NOT a Person just because He is the Spirit of power any more than Jesus is not a Person because "Christ, the power of God".

Wind is a force with great power, but never considered a person. The same is holy spirit, the gift of God. It has 9 manifestations, which every believer with faith can operate.

There are many symbols used for the Holy Spirit in the Bible. Wind is only one. You also have a living DOVE. That speaks of LIFE. And it also speaks of being gentle and easily disturbed, single eyed and mild.

So paradoxically the Third "Person" of the Triune God, the Holy Spirit, is depicted in a way of mighty power, like a strong wind, yet also as a gentle DOVE full of life.

The Spirit speaks - " ... Yes, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works follow them." (Rev. 14:13b)

And again "the Spirit and the Bride say, Come!" (Rev. 22:17).

The Bride is a corporate person and the Spirit is the Bridegroom who will is
indwelling the corporate person to be their life. He speaks as a Person along with the collective Bride of Christ as a aggregate living person.

Yet again - seven times after each of the seven letters to the seven churches we have the repeated phrase - "He who has ears to hear let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches" (See Rev. 2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22) .

Erroneously many Christians think speaking in tongues is a "gift", but it is not. The gift is the holy spirit that resides in every believer. Speaking in tongues (S.I.T.) is a manifestation of the gift.
Just as the Swiss army knife is one, it has many functions.
The gift of holy spirit is given to equip the believer. It would be difficult to function as a Christian without the manifestations of holy spirit.

I have no particular comment right now about tongue speaking.
I hope you do not go for a conspiracy argument. But we have "the Spirit Himself" in a number of English translations of Romans 8:16 -

English Standard Version
The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

New American Standard Bible
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The Spirit Himself testifies together with our spirit that we are God's children,

International Standard Version
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

NET Bible
The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God's children.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And that Spirit testifies to our spirit that we are sons of God;

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

American Standard Version
The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:

Douay-Rheims Bible
For the Spirit himself giveth testimony to our spirit, that we are the sons of God.

Granted, some versions do say "the Spirit itself". But many Greek to English translations, as you see, have the testifying Spirit or the bearing witness Spirit as a Person rather than a lifeless force.

This is solidly scriptural because for the Lord to be with the believer's spirit is for the Spirit to be with their human spirit.

"The Lord be with your spirit." (2 Timothy 4:22)

"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)

Joined to the Lord to be one spirit has to mean that the human spirit and the Holy Spirit have become united and mingled in the joining to be "one spirit". Jesus Christ in His form as "a life giving Spirit" can therefore come into man as a Person to compound the Person of the Triune God with our being.

That is all the time I have to discuss this morning.
I may respond to the rest of your post latter.

Originally posted by roigam
If you look at the Greek, it says, "and the Word was a god." the angels are also known as gods. God is a title denoting power and has been applied to many, even humans.
Jesus being the Word refers to his position as the mouthpiece of Jehovah.
Since Jehovah is holy and we are not He does not deal with us directly but through His representative. (John 16:27) ...[text shortened]... ou, because you have had affection for me and have believed that I came as God’s representative.

Good stuff brother and crystal clear to see for those who want to see it. Been here so many times with them on this and so far not many see it. The heart is a major road block as we know.
But we can't give up on sharing the truths in the bible until Jehovah says that's enough....

Originally posted by galveston75
Good stuff brother and crystal clear to see for those who want to see it. Been here so many times with them on this and so far not many see it. The heart is a major road block as we know.
But we can't give up on sharing the truths in the bible until Jehovah says that's enough....

Did you read my reply to roigam's post and the link in it?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
No, it is not a person. The gift of holy spirit is the the power of God.
God can only give of himself, what He is, spirit.
Wind is a force with great power, but never considered a person. The same is holy spirit, the gift of God. It has 9 manifestations, which every believer with faith can operate.
Erroneously many Christians think speaking in tong ...[text shortened]... t sit? Why is "he" not mentioned? Because the "he' is an "it".
Holy spirit is the power of God.

It is obvious to me that the Father is not the Holy Spirit. 😏

Jesus distinguished between the Father and the Holy Spirit by the following statement:

And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—

(John 14:16 NKJV)

Tha apostle Paul usually referred to the Father as God and Jesus Christ as Lord as we see in the following statement:

Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ...

(Galatians 1:3 NKJV)

But the apostle Paul also distinguished between God the Father and the Holy Spirit as we see below:

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.

(2 Corinthians 13:14 NKJV)

Originally posted by RJHinds

It is obvious to me that the Father is not the Holy Spirit.

1.) THE FATHER IS IN ALL the Christians -

The Holy Spirit is the only way the Father could be in the believers. So though there is a distinction between Father and Holy Spirit there is no separation.

The Father is not only "above all" but concerning all the Christians He is "in all" as well.

"One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." (Ephesians 4:6)

As you can see the Father is "IN ALL" as well as "over all".

2.) THE FATHER IS IN ALL BY MEANS OF THE ONE SPIRIT -

Since there is ONLY ONE Spirit - the Holy Spirit in the Christians, that means the Father is not separate from the Holy Spirit.

"One Body and one Spirit, ..." (Ephesians 4:4)

Since there is not TWO Spirits in the believers, IE. the Spirit of the Father and the Holy Spirit, that has to mean that the Holy Spirit as the "one Spirit" in the corporate Body of Christ, the church, brings "the Father" INTO the believers.

So we may say the Holy Spirit is the Father in our experience.

3.) THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER IN US HAS TO BE THE ONE HOLY SPIRIT IN US

Jesus speaks of how under intense persecution, the Spirit of our Father will give us what to say.

"For you are not the ones speaking but the Spirit of your Father is the One speaking in you." (Matt. 10:20)

So though there is distinction between the First of the Triune God and the Third of the Triune God, in our experience it is impossible to say They are separate.

Jesus distinguished between the Father and the Holy Spirit by the following statement:

And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—


(John 14:16 NKJV)

Sure, Jesus teaches a distinction within the Trinity. But Jesus also taught that They cannot be separated and where any one of the Triune God is the other of the Triune God is.

3.) THE FATHER SENT JESUS BUT IS IN JESUS WHOM HE SENT

"I in them, and You [Father] in Me ... that the world may know that You sent Me ..." (See John 17:23)

So when the Father sent the Son He was "in" the Son. There was distinction but not separation.

No wonder Jesus could say that the Father who sent Him remained with Him.

"He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things pleasing to Him." (John 8:29)

" ... I am not alone because the Father is with Me." (John 16:39)

Even when Jesus says He is going to the Father, there is still no separation between He and the Father.

"But now I am going to Him who sent Me; ..." (John 16:5)

4.) THE FATHER IN THE SON PROVING HIS LOVE FOR THE SON ALSO LIVES IN THE DISCIPLES PROVING HIS LOVE FOR THEM AS WELL

"I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me." (John 17:23)

The world knows that the Father loved the Son and sent the Son by the way the Father is IN the Son.

The church is to be "PERFECTED" into oneness with one another and the Triune God so that the world know have the same realization concerning the lovers of Jesus - ... and have loved them even as You loved Me."

This is the consummation of the PROCESS of being PERFECTED in oneness in the Divine Trinity. The full realization of this process of perfecting is the New Jerusalem symbolically seen in the last two chapters of the Bible, Revelation 21 and 22.

All this I wrote to show that the Holy Spirit is the only means by which the Father and the Son can dwell in man.

Originally posted by divegeester
I recognise the water analogy, but in my opinion the "three distinct persons" phrase is unsupportable in scripture, contradictory in terms of the OT revealed nature of God and fundamentally, Romanesque paganism.

PS this is not an attack

🙂

Not taken as an attack.

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

I know what you're going to say to that. That that verse doesn't appear in the oldest extant manuscripts.

You do know don't you that in the Revelation Jesus said that the words of the book would be both taken away and added to? You do realize that the adversary has been actively trying to corrupt the Word of God since the beginning? Obviously there are corrupt translations in existence. Don't you agree?

So then, who is the final authority? Not you or me certainly. The only answer is is that God's Word is the final authority on the Word of God. How do we know if we have what God calls His written Word without error? God tells us in His Word. It has to do with a topic called manuscript evidence and it's preservation. The key word is preservation. The topic is a long and complex as is the Word of God. The span of which covers the past 3500 years and can be traced out to the present.

God is one, and revealed as three distinct persons by His Word. Just as man was created in the image of God and in His likeness and has a body, soul and spirit is God revealed a Father, Son and Holy Ghost. We have three distinct characteristics to our existence yet we are one man. So it is with God. The scripture is clear on this, even if we're not.

You didn't read far enough in Isaiah.
(Isaiah 43:10, 11) “You are my witnesses,” declares Jehovah, “Yes, my servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and have faith in me And understand that I am the same One. Before me no God was formed, And after me there has been none. 11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”
It is Jehovah as our wise Creator that has provided our only savior from sin and death.
As Jehovah's only brgotten son, the beginning of Jehovah's creation, Jesus, in his prehuman existence was no doubt happy to step up and do his Father's will as that savior.
It's clear too that with Jehovah's active force working through him he did provide the propitiatory sacrifice that Jehovah in His wisdom saw was needed to legally provide a ransom.
For his faithful service, Jehovah rewarded Jesus.
(Philippians 2:9-11) For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Originally posted by sonship

It is obvious to me that the Father is not the Holy Spirit.

[b] 1.) THE FATHER IS IN ALL the Christians -

The Holy Spirit is the only way the Father could be in the believers. So though there is a distinction between Father and Holy Spirit there is no separation.

The Father is not only "above ...[text shortened]... he Holy Spirit is the only means by which the [b]Father and the Son can dwell in man.[/b]

All I am saying is there is a difference between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, there would be no need to make a distinction by Jesus or the apostles.

And god dictated a holy book to the earthlings so that they would all understand what he wanted them to do.


Only the omniscient god made his holy book so opaque that the earthlings would argue over it for thousands of years.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
And god dictated a holy book to the earthlings so that they would all understand what he wanted them to do.


Only the omniscient god made his holy book so opaque that the earthlings would argue over it for thousands of years.

The scriptures are inspired, not dictated, numbnuts. 😏