1. Joined
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    25 Dec '14 19:32
    (Matthew 28:18) Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.
    Who gave Jesus his authority?
    (Daniel 7:13, 14) “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.
    (Jesus is called "son of man" over 80 times in the Chrisitan Greek Scriptures.)
    (John 16:27, 28) For the Father himself has affection for you, because you have had affection for me and have believed that I came as God’s representative. 28 I came as the Father’s representative and have come into the world. Now I am leaving the world and am going to the Father.”
    Clearly, Jesus is Jehovah God's agent in restoring mankind to our proper perfect state. That is why Jesus is called the Word!
    As Peter stated, (Matthew 16:15, 16) He said to them: “You, though, who do you say I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
    The apostle Peter did not say Jesus was God. He said "the Son of God".
    Do we know more than the apostle Peter who was with Jesus?
  2. Joined
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    25 Dec '14 20:27
    Originally posted by roigam
    (Matthew 28:18) Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.
    Who gave Jesus his authority?
    (Daniel 7:13, 14) “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought hi ...[text shortened]... s was God. He said "the Son of God".
    Do we know more than the apostle Peter who was with Jesus?
    Isaiah 9:6-7

    For unto us a Child is born,
    Unto us a Son is given;
    And the government will be upon His shoulder.
    And His name will be called
    Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Pretty much nails it I'm afraid.

    Yes, we've already heard that you lot circumvent by distinguishing between mighty and almighty and therefore have to make Jesus a mighty God and not just THE almighty God.

    Unfortunately you then have 2 Gods and 2 saviours

    But you also say Jesus is an angel, so you have an angel as one of your saviours...

    And so the error goes from bad to worse....
  3. SubscriberSuzianne
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    26 Dec '14 00:39
    Originally posted by roigam

    Clearly, Jesus is Jehovah God's agent in restoring mankind to our proper perfect state. That is why Jesus is called the Word!
    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." -- John 1:1, KJV
  4. Standard memberRJHinds
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    26 Dec '14 04:011 edit
    Originally posted by roigam
    (Matthew 28:18) Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.
    Who gave Jesus his authority?
    (Daniel 7:13, 14) “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought hi ...[text shortened]... s was God. He said "the Son of God".
    Do we know more than the apostle Peter who was with Jesus?
    Jesus is called many things and amoung those are "my Lord and my God" and "our great God and Savior".

    Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

    (John 20:28 NASB
    ...looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

    (Titus 2-13-14 NASB)
  5. Standard memberCalJustonline
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    26 Dec '14 08:27
    Once you have finally decided which of the two it is (Son of God, or Almighty God), will you THEN give attention to what he said, and actually DO it?

    You are playing with words and semantics, rather than giving attention to the message.

    Here's my take on it: BOTH sides are right and both sides are wrong, simply because the concepts are interpretations of words and constructs of our mind which are impossible to grasp.
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    26 Dec '14 08:401 edit
    Originally posted by CalJust
    Once you have finally decided which of the two it is (Son of God, or Almighty God), will you THEN give attention to what he said, and actually DO it?

    You are playing with words and semantics, rather than giving attention to the message.

    Here's my take on it: BOTH sides are right and both sides are wrong, simply because the concepts are interpretations of words and constructs of our mind which are impossible to grasp.
    Who are you replying to?

    What are the "sides" you are referring two and what are their juxtapositions?

    The scripture I quoted does not mention "son of god"; where are you referencing this from and in what context and to whom?

    When you say "are just words and constructs of our minds which are impossible to grasp", are you saying that your position (whatever it is) is beyond encapsulation in linguistic or textual form or cognitive process?
  7. SubscriberFMF
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    26 Dec '14 09:22
    Originally posted by CalJust
    You are playing with words and semantics, rather than giving attention to the message.
    This is a generic flaw with religionists.
  8. Standard memberCalJustonline
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    26 Dec '14 11:33
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Who are you replying to?

    What are the "sides" you are referring two and what are their juxtapositions?

    The scripture I quoted does not mention "son of god"; where are you referencing this from and in what context and to whom?

    When you say "are just words and constructs of our minds which are impossible to grasp", are you saying that your position (whatever it is) is beyond encapsulation in linguistic or textual form or cognitive process?
    I may be wrong, but this thread seems to me one of the typical "Jesus is not divine" positions fundamental to JW doctrine. Of course, the "other side" is the orthodox one espoused by RJH, sonship and others.

    Yes, words and mental constructs are all that we have to work with, as long as we do not confuse (or identifying) the essence of what we are describing with the words we use.

    As soon as you think you have a mental picture of what God is, you can be 100% sure that you are wrong.
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    26 Dec '14 12:01
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Isaiah 9:6-7

    For unto us a Child is born,
    Unto us a Son is given;
    And the government will be upon His shoulder.
    And His name will be called
    Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Pretty much nails it I'm afraid.

    Yes, we've already heard that you lot circumvent by distinguishing between mighty and almighty and ...[text shortened]... , so you have an angel as one of your saviours...

    And so the error goes from bad to worse....
    It gets worse.

    The JW's acknowledge that Jesus created us, but somehow he is not our God. 🙄
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    26 Dec '14 14:05
    Originally posted by roigam
    (Matthew 28:18) Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.
    Who gave Jesus his authority?
    (Daniel 7:13, 14) “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought hi ...[text shortened]... s was God. He said "the Son of God".
    Do we know more than the apostle Peter who was with Jesus?
    Try thinking of it this way. Water is water, right? But it comes in three different forms as a solid, liquid or vapor.

    God has revealed Himself as three distinct persons, but He is one God. To detract from the obvious revelation of scripture the nature of who Jesus is is probably one of the most profound errors one can make.
  11. Joined
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    26 Dec '14 19:062 edits
    Originally posted by josephw
    Try thinking of it this way. Water is water, right? But it comes in three different forms as a solid, liquid or vapor.

    God has revealed Himself as three distinct persons, but He is one God. To detract from the obvious revelation of scripture the nature of who Jesus is is probably one of the most profound errors one can make.
    I recognise the water analogy, but in my opinion the "three distinct persons" phrase is unsupportable in scripture, contradictory in terms of the OT revealed nature of God and fundamentally, Romanesque paganism.

    PS this is not an attack

    🙂
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    26 Dec '14 19:21
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." -- John 1:1, KJV
    If you look at the Greek, it says, "and the Word was a god." the angels are also known as gods. God is a title denoting power and has been applied to many, even humans.
    Jesus being the Word refers to his position as the mouthpiece of Jehovah.
    Since Jehovah is holy and we are not He does not deal with us directly but through His representative. (John 16:27) For the Father himself has affection for you, because you have had affection for me and have believed that I came as God’s representative.
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    26 Dec '14 19:30
    Originally posted by whodey
    It gets worse.

    The JW's acknowledge that Jesus created us, but somehow he is not our God. 🙄
    (Philippians 2:5, 6) Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.
    Obviously Jesus doesn't think he is God.
    (Philippians 2:9-11) For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
    Yes, Jesus is our rightful Lord and King over all, but for whose glory has he taken this assignment.
  14. Joined
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    26 Dec '14 19:31
    Originally posted by roigam
    If you look at the Greek, it says, "and the Word was a god."
    I guess that depends on wether it's the "Greek" as shown to you by the Watchtower of the "Greek" as the rest of the Christian world sees it.

    Try here for example:

    http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1-1.htm
  15. Standard memberRemoved
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    26 Dec '14 19:50
    1 Cor 15:28
    28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
    NKJV
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