on jesus' divinity

"Historical Background of the Trinity"

http://www.christadelphia.org/trinityhistory.htm

http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/doctrine/The%20Origin%20of%20the%20Trinity.htm

I've posted so many of these links before that clearly show the non christian history of the trinity. Most who believe in the trinity usually ignor these facts.

Originally posted by roigam
So you would have everyone believe imperfect men over the inspired word of the apostle at (Philippians 2:5, 6) Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.
or to Peter's words at (Matthew 16:13-17) When he had come int ...[text shortened]... t their judgment, decided long ago, is not moving slowly, and their destruction is not sleeping.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

(Genesis 1:1 KJV)

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

(Genesis 1:26 KJV)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

(John 1:1-3 KJV)

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

(John 1:10-12 KJV)

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

(John 1:18 KJV)

Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

(John 6:46 KJV)

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

(John 14:9 KJV)

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

(Hebrews 1:1-3 KJV)

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

(Colossians 1:15-17 KJV)

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

(Matthew 28:18-20 KJV)

Originally posted by RJHinds

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

(Genesis 1:1 KJV)

And God said, Let [b]us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth u ...[text shortened]... lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

(Matthew 28:18-20 KJV)[/b]

1) Yes God created all. No mention of anyone or anything else in this scripture being with him.

2) God is now speaking to someone that was not with him in the very beginning of creation. Jesus his son was the first of his creations.

3) God has always existed. The "word" or his son Jesus had a beginning. Jesus is a God but not God Almighty.

4) Perhaps this makes it easier to understand:

John 1:10-12Good News Translation (GNT)

10 The Word was in the world, and though God made the world "through" him, yet the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to his own country, but his own people did not receive him. 12 Some, however, did receive him and believed in him; so he gave them the right to become God's children.

5) Only proves Jesus is not God Almighty. If Jesus were God Almighty or some part of him, all humans would have died while looking upon him with their eyes.

6) Only proves again that no one can see Jehovah, God Almighty.

7) Only proves that Jesus is in complete union and agreement with his Father Jehovah.

8) Only proves again that Jesus is his Fathers spokesman or "word". He also sits at his Fathers right side. Two completely different beings. No mention of the holy spirit here or sitting in a position of authority. No name ever given to the holy spirit either.

9) Still proves Jesus was created and that all things were created for him. Again nothing was created before him as he is the 1st of all creation.

10) Proves he did not have the powers or authority he was later "given" to him by his Father Jehovah.


No proof here at all from any of these scriptures that Jesus, the holy spirit and Jehovah are a 3 in 1 god being. If anything they all prove the opposite.

Originally posted by galveston75
1) Yes God created all. No mention of anyone or anything else in this scripture being with him.

2) God is now speaking to someone that was not with him in the very beginning of creation. Jesus his son was the first of his creations.

3) God has always existed. The "word" or his son Jesus had a beginning. Jesus is a God but not God Almighty.

4) Pe ...[text shortened]... us, the holy spirit and Jehovah are a 3 in 1 god being. If anything they all prove the opposite.

These are also supported by Jesus' own words at John 20:17, (John 20:17) Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to "my" God and your God.’”
If you believe Jesus is God, who is his God that he is ascending to?
Jesus also said, (John 14:6) Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
He didn't say he is the Father. but,
(John 14:28) You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am.
He did say the Father is greater than he is.

Originally posted by roigam

So you would have everyone believe imperfect men over the inspired word of the apostle at (Philippians 2:5, 6) Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.

There is no contradiction between us worshiping Jesus Christ as our Lord and our God (John 20:28) and His humbling Himself unto obedience to the Father, and that through the death of the cross.

I reserve the right to believe everything the Scriptures teaches about God.

or to Peter's words at (Matthew 16:13-17) When he had come into the region of Caes·a·re′a Phi·lip′pi, Jesus asked his disciples: “Who are men saying the Son of man is?” 14 They said: “Some say John the Baptist, others E·li′jah, and still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them: “You, though, who do you say I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

There is no contradiction between Revelation 1:17 saying that He is "the First and the Last" and His revealing that He is the Christ the Son of the living God.

In God's journey to dispense Himself into man He reveals Himself as triune. I reserve the right to not make one passage fight against another. I reserve the right to embrace the fullest scope of what Scripture reveals about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

By the way, concerning your contention that the Spirit is not a Person, I noticed this passage yesterday of the Spirit speaking -

" ... the Holy Spirit said, Set apart for Me now Barnabus and Saul for the work to which I have called them." (Acts 13:2)

The "Me" there as well as the "I" there is Jesus Christ so He is also the Holy Spirit. Or if you wish Jesus Christ coinheres the Holy Spirit and vica versa.

And again the Person of the Spirit speaks - "And while Peter was pondering over the vision, the Spirit said to him, Behold, there are three men seeking you. But rise up, go down and go with them, doubting nothing, because I have sent them." (Acts 10:20)

The "I" there surely is both the speaking Spirit (v.20) and Jesus Christ Himself. So we say coinherence is a valid expression to describe how the Three of the Trinity inter-penetrate One another.

It is best to say "Amen" to whatever the Bible says even when it is at times paradoxical. Our experience of God confirms that it speaks the truth.

17 In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon son of Jo′nah, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father in the heavens did.

There is no contradiction. The Father in the heavens revealed something to Peter. But when the Lord Jesus walked on earth the Father was in Him and came WITH Him as I showed you before -

John 8:29 - "He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone ..." (John 8:29)

The Trinity reveals God going on a kind of journey out from eternity and into man's being to be man's life. So we should not think of Jesus leaving the Father in heaven to come to earth alone. On one hand He was sent by the Father. On the other hand He came "with" the Father and the Father lives in Him and He in the Father.

The interpenetration is so absolute that the Son ... given is called "eternal Father" in the prophecy of Isaiah 9:6. And it is therefore no wonder the doubting Thomas was finally subdued and called the resurrected Man Jesus Christ his Lord and his God.

"Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28)

Do we see Jesus correcting Thomas?
Do we see Jesus rebuking Thomas?
Not concerning Jesus being called his God do we see Jesus adjust Thomas.

Rather we see Jesus proclaim that he is blessed to believe -

"Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who havve not seen and have believed." (v.29)

BELIEVED WHAT ?

That is "believed" that Jesus Christ is the Lord and God.
"Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!"

So say Christians since then.

Originally posted by galveston75
1) Yes God created all. No mention of anyone or anything else in this scripture being with him.

2) God is now speaking to someone that was not with him in the very beginning of creation. Jesus his son was the first of his creations.

3) God has always existed. The "word" or his son Jesus had a beginning. Jesus is a God but not God Almighty.

4) Pe ...[text shortened]... us, the holy spirit and Jehovah are a 3 in 1 god being. If anything they all prove the opposite.

No. Your understanding is incorrect. Try again. 😏

Originally posted by sonship

So you would have everyone believe imperfect men over the inspired word of the apostle at (Philippians 2:5, 6) Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.

There is no contradiction between us wor ...[text shortened]... [b]"Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!"

So say Christians since then.[/b]

If seeing Jesus is equivalent to seeing God the Father, as Jesus told Philip, then I believe our worship of Jesus as our Lord and our God is equivalent to worshipping God the Father. Do you agree?

Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
(John 14:6)

How else can we worship God the Father, if we fail to worship the Son?

Originally posted by roigam
"I and the Father are one." is a statement of Jesus being in harmony with Jehovah's purpose to redeem mankind. They are unified in purpose. Jesus was not saying he was God.
(Philippians 2:5, 6) Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.

I think your leaders need to take heed to Revelation 22:18-19.


Philippians 2:5-11 states: "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." -- Philippians 2:5-11, KJV

I know you get YOUR Philippians 2:5-6 from the NWT and this is further proof that your leaders have made a "Bible" which is formed from their already-made dogma, namely that God is not Triune, and additionally that He did not die on a cross.

As comparison, here is the NWT Philippians 2:5-11:

"Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus,
who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.
No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human.
More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake.
For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name,
so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground—
and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." -- Philippians 2:5-11, NWT



How is it possible that two translations can have such blatant, obvious differences, as in Philippians 2:6? That's simple. One is the Word of God and the other is the Word of Man.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I think your leaders need to take heed to Revelation 22:18-19.


Philippians 2:5-11 states: "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being fou ...[text shortened]... as in Philippians 2:6? That's simple. One is the Word of God and the other is the Word of Man.

We use many Bibles but we do like the NWT 2013 because language has changed through the years and we enjoy getting the correct understanding with a Bible written in a language we speak today.
How difficult it would be if my friend moved to another part of the world and wrote to me in language I did not know. I would work hard to find out what my friend was saying but it would be better if my friend wrote in a language we speak.
I'll give you 2 verses. Read them in your own Bible.
(John 1:18) No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.
Don't you agree that men have seen Jesus. So, he can't be God.
(John 20:17) Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to "my God" and your God.’”
I am a follower of Jesus so I worship Jesus' God.
That God is Jehovah.
Along that line, a 3rd Bible Scripture occurs to me. Check your Bible please. (Matthew 6:9) “You must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.
Jesus didn't say sanctify his name but his Father's.

Originally posted by RJHinds

If seeing Jesus is equivalent to seeing God the Father, as Jesus told Philip, then I believe our worship of Jesus as our Lord and our God is equivalent to worshipping God the Father. Do you agree?

I agree.

Originally posted by roigam
We use many Bibles but we do like the NWT 2013 because language has changed through the years and we enjoy getting the correct understanding with a Bible written in a language we speak today.

And yet JWs always quote from the NWT and funnily enough, it is the JW version of the Bible.

Originally posted by roigam
We use many Bibles but we do like the NWT 2013 because language has changed through the years and we enjoy getting the correct understanding with a Bible written in a language we speak today.
How difficult it would be if my friend moved to another part of the world and wrote to me in language I did not know. I would work hard to find out what my friend was ...[text shortened]... the heavens, let your name be sanctified.
Jesus didn't say sanctify his name but his Father's.

We are looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, (Titus 2:13 NKJV) for He is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15 NKJV)

It is through the Son that we shall see the Father.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.” (John 14:6-7 NKJV)

Originally posted by galveston75
Good stuff brother and crystal clear to see for those who want to see it. Been here so many times with them on this and so far not many see it. The heart is a major road block as we know.
But we can't give up on sharing the truths in the bible until Jehovah says that's enough....

I didn't catch your post earlier Brother. You are right. We keep trying. We know the end is very close and hopefully some will respond.
What do you think of the new song?
"The Kingdom is in place...Let it come, Let it come."
I love the phrase, "The Kingdom is in place." The next step is:
(1 John 3:8) ... For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, to break up the works of the Devil.
and no doubt
(Daniel 12:1) “During that time Mi′cha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book.
Jehovah willing there will be many yet who will choose to stand at Jesus' side.

Originally posted by roigam

Jehovah willing there will be many yet who will choose to stand at Jesus' side.

You have been misled to believe that Michael the angel is Jesus.

Originally posted by roigam
We use many Bibles but we do like the NWT 2013 because language has changed through the years and we enjoy getting the correct understanding with a Bible written in a language we speak today.
How difficult it would be if my friend moved to another part of the world and wrote to me in language I did not know. I would work hard to find out what my friend was ...[text shortened]... the heavens, let your name be sanctified.
Jesus didn't say sanctify his name but his Father's.

The New King James Version and the New American Standard Bible are good modern English translations of the Holy Bible. However, the older King James Version should be used as a comparison as you try to understand the Holy Bible, in my opinion.