On Rights, part II

Originally posted by @dj2becker
So you're not 100% sure that it is always wrong to kill someone for no reason?

Your question is wrong. If we don't know anything 100% we don't know that we are killing them for no reason 100%. we don't even know if we killed them 100%...I did however clarify that we can know 99.9r% which is good enough for me.

Originally posted by @stellspalfie
Your question is wrong. If we don't know anything 100% we don't know that we are killing them for no reason 100%. we don't even know if we killed them 100%...I did however clarify that we can know 99.9r% which is good enough for me.

And any other rational person.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
[b]I would try to change their mind.

If you do not have an objective standard of morality by which you can determine what is right or wrong, then should anyone adhere to your moral standard of what is right and wrong?[/b]

They should if my moral judgment is well-reasoned and resonates with their internal morality.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
If you don’t need an objective standard of morality by which you can judge what is right or wrong, then how do you determine what is right and wrong?

I use my experience, intuition, and moral judgment as best I can.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
If you don’t need an objective standard of morality by which you can judge what is right or wrong, then how do you determine what is right and wrong?

Your reasoning is faulty. Before the first law was laid down in the bible the Law of Moses, people were capable of being good, just and moral. What it is that made them them way. It is the conscience, which God has placed in every human being. Nobody needs laws to know right from wrong and good from evil.

Originally posted by @philokalia
I was accused of running away from a thread on this. That is not the case. I would merely insist that the previous thread ran its full course and, both parties unable to really meaningfully continue discussion, let it naturally end. That's neither here nor there.

The premise I had in the last argument is basically the same as the one here. However, t ...[text shortened]... nted to elucidate some points and create the basis for a new thread for discussing these issues.

You have a number of different levels of which you speak.

Justice of a person would be the area i am most knowledgeable with as it is truth and justice are in my core.

As for a persons rights, most of this is embedded in whichever society you live in. Western countries have a different value system than countries in the east. What women might think of as oppression in America, in India it is what is expected. Are there abuses, yes, on both sides. When one takes advantage of anothers position, it becomes an abuse of power.

Let us go back to Justice.

It is in justice, we can see truth. On the religious bent, looking at Jesus life, or even that of the scripture. Both never talk about being a slave as being wrong or evil. Yet both use this understanding to teach.

Justice isn't just a tool for freedom in a physical way. True Justice is a tool that brings the whole being to peace.

Originally posted by @stellspalfie
I'm anti-monarchy and not a fan of religion, but I'm happy to tolerate them on the condition that its what the majority want, they have little power and are benign. If either began to contravene those lines drawn I would argue against them. I would not force my opinion on people, I would try to change their mind.

Cant force change for sure... change others via charity, teaching or improving yourself

Originally posted by @karoly-aczel
Cant force change for sure... change others via charity, teaching or improving yourself

change can be forced. it happens all the time. in the usa, 9-11 it changed us. Pearl Harbor, changed us too.

but there are other forms of change that develope over time. causes revolutions. what happened in India in the '50's. and all the other peaceful revolutions in the world

Originally posted by @rajk999
Your reasoning is faulty. Before the first law was laid down in the bible the Law of Moses, people were capable of being good, just and moral. What it is that made them them way. It is the conscience, which God has placed in every human being. Nobody needs laws to know right from wrong and good from evil.

So why then did God instruct Moses to give his people the ten commandments?

Originally posted by @bigdoggproblem
I use my experience, intuition, and moral judgment as best I can.

But what is the basis of your value judgment behind these things?

Every single system needs to be embodied with a value judgment.

For instance, if I am of the general opinion that people are rather nasty and out to get me, I am going to make decisions that are far different than if I am of the opinion that people are generally good and deserve almost exclusively good things.

From your experience, intuition, and "moral judgment," you can make any manner of conclusions.

Where is Stalin wrong in terms of any of these things if he simply has a different realm of moral judgment and a different set of starting values than you?

Originally posted by @dj2becker
So why then did God instruct Moses to give his people the ten commandments?

Oh .. you got me .. it was because nobody knew not to kill, steal etc.

Originally posted by @pudgenik
You have a number of different levels of which you speak.

Justice of a person would be the area i am most knowledgeable with as it is truth and justice are in my core.

As for a persons rights, most of this is embedded in whichever society you live in. Western countries have a different value system than countries in the east. What women might think ...[text shortened]... tool for freedom in a physical way. True Justice is a tool that brings the whole being to peace.

I think that I generally agree with a lot of what you say.

My emphasis is that justice is an innate sense that we all have. Any rational mind has a concept of what is right and what is wrong.

Indeed, one of the things that child psychologists point out is that children love rules in games, and they love to see these rules enforced.

People naturally gravitate toward structure that makes sense and gives meaningful explanations of things, and this is because of our innate sense of justice, our innate sense of propriety.

Originally posted by @pudgenik
change can be forced. it happens all the time. in the usa, 9-11 it changed us. Pearl Harbor, changed us too.

but there are other forms of change that develope over time. causes revolutions. what happened in India in the '50's. and all the other peaceful revolutions in the world

Positive change cant be forced,I should say

Originally posted by @philokalia
I think that I generally agree with a lot of what you say.

My emphasis is that justice is an innate sense that we all have. Any rational mind has a concept of what is right and what is wrong.

Indeed, one of the things that child psychologists point out is that children love rules in games, and they love to see these rules enforced.

Peop ...[text shortened]... ns of things, and this is because of our innate sense of justice, our innate sense of propriety.

yes indeed.

when i look at rights and justice, and this is for the extreem. i look to at children who are sold by their own parents (due to crazy life situations) into the sex trade.

Of the children i feel great sorrow for. and for the traffickers i about want to tear them limb from limb. lol. and as hard as it is, i pray for them.

here though, rights and justice - or at least the way i see human rights and justice are greatly violated.

Yet many of those in this trade are educated men and women. for the most part, rational. and corrupt. simular of the drug trade as well.

that innate sense of propriety and justice has gone out the window

Originally posted by @karoly-aczel
Positive change cant be forced,I should say

i cant totally agree with you, because in all things, there always seems to be a stick in the mud.

I guess you can think of it this way. one mans garbage is another mans gold.

the American Revolution. to the british, a terrible war they lost, to the americans, a great victory. to the Americans, it was forced, and very positive.

In my own children, the day i forced my daughter to go to a local photo shoot. She really hated me for it, until the letter came in the mail, they wanted her to pose for J.C. Penny's monthly adds.

(she always told me how ugly she was, and i felt she is beautiful) (kids wont hear dads as much as they hear from others, what does dad know) lol