On the Attribution of Value to Dust

@ghost-of-a-duke said
That you would think an atheist (such as myself) 'hopes' God doesn't exist demonstrates you have no idea what you are talking about.

There are several theists here who have been talking to atheists for years and years and yet they so often come across as if today is the very first time they have ever talked to one.

@fmf said
There are several theists here who have been talking to atheists for years and years and yet they so often come across as if today is the very first time they have ever talked to one.

Theists like kelly or sonship have a tendency to project their own idea of atheism onto atheists. So for example, sonship will tell me that I'm an atheist because I fear God (and other such illogical nonsense).

@ghost-of-a-duke said
That you would think an atheist (such as myself) 'hopes' God doesn't exist demonstrates you have no idea what you are talking about.

God off the table, my life is full of hope. More than yours I wager.

Hope period is off the table for your camp, this life is what it is and nothing beyond that. You may hope something in this life turns out better to your liking, but if it doesn't there is nothing else for your camp. I don't think you have remotely anywhere near the hope I have in this life. I know there is more, so if bad or good things come, this life isn't it, if things go side ways here that isn't the end.

@kellyjay said
Hope period is off the table for your camp, this life is what it is and nothing beyond that.

What makes you think other people need to hope for everlasting life just because you need to?

@kellyjay said
I don't think you have remotely anywhere near the hope I have in this life.

People like Ghost of a Duke and I live our lives while having no psychological use for the "hope" that you place so centrally in the way you cope with living yours.

@kellyjay said
if bad or good things come, this life isn't it, if things go side ways here that isn't the end.

In other words, hoping for everlasting life gives you solace and helps you with the ups and downs of life.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Theists like kelly or sonship have a tendency to project their own idea of atheism onto atheists. So for example, sonship will tell me that I'm an atheist because I fear God (and other such illogical nonsense).

sonship has, several times told me that I am lying about being an atheist and instead I am angry with Jesus for rising from the dead and offering me "salvation", hence my willing membership of "Satan's" rebellion. It made me feel ever so projected onto.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I know life didn't come from God. He is a rocket with no bang. (Just a disappointing fizz).

Do you know how life started, where did it come from so you can say where it didn’t? You have nothing to look at to draw comparisons, and you have nothing to look at to see if anything you think about life's beginning is right or not. What we see in life are incredible strands of DNA, and some of the most massive amounts of information we know are in it, you think that just occurred? Do you think all of the information in life directing processing systems could come about by a blind uncaring undirected process? Do you believe all the information within life that directs form and function can come about by a blind uncaring undirected process? Do you honestly think all of the data for automating function complex living systems on-off switches, occur without a directed cause? That all of the decision making support and information management is a direct result of anything short of a mind directing it all? I think you have to turn your brain off to accept the universes fine-tuning and life’s complexity are not substantial red flags telling us that all of this is here the way is for a reason, none of us are meaningless in the grand scheme of things, we are not here and gone without a real purpose.

@kellyjay said
Do you know how life started, where did it come from so you can say where it didn’t? You have nothing to look at to draw comparisons, and you have nothing to look at to see if anything you think about life's beginning is right or not. What we see in life are incredible strands of DNA, and some of the most massive amounts of information we know are in it, you think that just ...[text shortened]... us are meaningless in the grand scheme of things where we are here and gone without a real purpose.

Ouch. Out comes a huge slab of generic rhetoric.

Don't run away from the question about the attribution of value to life.

We're only on page 3.

@kellyjay said
Do you know how life started, where did it come from so you can say where it didn’t?

How does the fact that you claim you know about the origin of life make you able to attribute value to human life while Ghost of a Duke's acknowledgement ~ that neither of you knows for sure about the origin of life ~ make him NOT able to attribute value to human life?

@kellyjay said
Hope period is off the table for your camp, this life is what it is and nothing beyond that. You may hope something in this life turns out better to your liking, but if it doesn't there is nothing else for your camp. I don't think you have remotely anywhere near the hope I have in this life. I know there is more, so if bad or good things come, this life isn't it, if things go side ways here that isn't the end.

This will blow your mind Kelly.

As an atheist, I believe that when I die that is it. And yet, despite this, I carry tremendous hope for my family and friends, and indeed for the human species as a whole. I don't share your negative view of humanity, that we are fundamentally broken and evil. I have great hope that our species will continue to evolve and thrive and move to a higher level of morality and existence. The time will come when such things as war or animal cruelty will be looked back on through mystified eyes, as we do now on more primitive times.

My hopes are pinned on reality, on our shared human potential. This far exceeds any wishful thinking you hold about divine intervention and salvation.

@kellyjay said
Do you know how life started, where did it come from so you can say where it didn’t? You have nothing to look at to draw comparisons, and you have nothing to look at to see if anything you think about life's beginning is right or not. What we see in life are incredible strands of DNA, and some of the most massive amounts of information we know are in it, you think that just ...[text shortened]... f us are meaningless in the grand scheme of things, we are not here and gone without a real purpose.

It is far more likely that the ingredients for life came from meteorites striking a planet hospitable for life that it is from divine creation.

Truth is, you have no idea yourself how life started. Indeed, you are further from that answer than myself, due to being diverted by imaginary beings.

@fmf said
How does the fact that you claim you know about the origin of life make you able to attribute value to human life while Ghost of a Duke's acknowledgement ~ that neither of you knows for sure about the origin of life ~ make him NOT able to attribute value to human life?

Good question.

@kellyjay said
Do you know how life started, where did it come from so you can say where it didn’t? You have nothing to look at to draw comparisons, and you have nothing to look at to see if anything you think about life's beginning is right or not. What we see in life are incredible strands of DNA, and some of the most massive amounts of information we know are in it, you think that just ...[text shortened]... f us are meaningless in the grand scheme of things, we are not here and gone without a real purpose.

Do you honestly think God couldn't have done it any other way, than to just magically "poof" everything into existence, fully formed? That maybe it was just "too hard" to do it any other way? Do you feel that free will is a cornerstone of God's will, or just something man "made up"?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
It is far more likely that the ingredients for life came from meteorites striking a planet hospitable for life that it is from divine creation.

Truth is, you have no idea yourself how life started. Indeed, you are further from that answer than myself, due to being diverted by imaginary beings.

Why would it be any more likely for life ingredients to come from a meteor than divine creation? Claiming one is more likely than the other is asserting your beliefs as factual, very circular of you!

I don't have to have an imaginary being to know it takes a mind to produce information that will direct intricate work. If I start introducing random changes into a sophisticated program, it will not become more complex; it will instead degrade, an imaginary being not required for this knowledge either. We can see but one cause for this type of information occurring; it is a mind with a plan and purpose to cause something akin to the information in life to happen, and with the information within life, very few of us reach that level of programming.

Can you look at life and its complexity and ask yourself which is more likely without interjecting your preconceived ideas and bias? Can life start without anyone directing the path it needed to go to continue on? If it just happen to begin would it then rise to the high levels of functional sophistication we see today?

The other choice, life has a code writer who is not only in control of the coding but all of the environment surrounding life too. The likely hood boils down to which is easier to believe, the least likely in my opinion, is we get human beings out of an undirected string of fortunate mutations falling into place due to natural selection.

Why would people say life looks like it "was designed," then turn around and deny it? If it were just the evidence, they would say it looks like it is "designed" and accept it, instead of acknowledging it than denying it.