1. R
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    17 Oct '14 01:00
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    I have no "faith" so I cannot answer.
    My wife says it's just a gut-feeling she cannot explain.
    Some say it's the Bible/Koran/LordoftheRings

    What is your personal basis for your faith?

    NOTE: Please NO DISCUSSION or PUT DOWNS or ARGUING.
    All honest answers are correct.
    Maybe you should start with "What is Faith".
    In the bible it is translated as pistis or believing.
    Faith or believing is a verb and connotes action.
    For example , if I say I believe that this chair I am sitting on, will hold my weight safely, I have faith or belief in the chair, the person who constructed it, the workmanship.
    I sit here repeatedly and don't even think about it, I am confident in it's ability.
    The same holds true for scripture. When I believe what God has promised in His word, I have faith and receive what He has promised.
    The more I see His promises come to pass, (starting with little things, is best)my faith grows. The more I recognize His genuine love for me, the more I believe.
    Rom 10:11
    For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.
    NKJV
  2. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    17 Oct '14 01:55
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    Maybe you should start with "What is Faith".
    [/b]
    Maybe you should start that thread.

    This thread is "On what do you base your faith"
  3. Unknown Territories
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    17 Oct '14 04:12
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    I have no "faith" so I cannot answer.
    My wife says it's just a gut-feeling she cannot explain.
    Some say it's the Bible/Koran/LordoftheRings

    What is your personal basis for your faith?

    NOTE: Please NO DISCUSSION or PUT DOWNS or ARGUING.
    All honest answers are correct.
    Although I have never experienced anything which has caused me to question my faith, none (or precious little) of my belief is based upon personal experience--- even though there have been flashes of agreement within that realm.

    I grew up in a godless family, when the only mention of God or the Lord Jesus Christ was when "Damnit" was the former's last name and the equivalent of "Effing" was the latter's middle.

    As I grew in self-awareness, it occurred to me the seeming necessity for a personal creator: certainly all of 'this' creation required some mindful, thought-processing maker, some thing bigger than what was made.
    I felt this thing must also be personal, since personality seemed (to me at eight or nine years old) to be more complex than simple animals.
    Outwardly, prayerfully, I requested this personal creator to be made known to me.

    Within the span of a week, a bus came through the neighborhood signing kids up for Vacation Bible School.
    I didn't find God in church, but I did find out more about Him than the stars or any other part of creation could relay.
    To me (even then), church was fake-holy.
    Talk about tares among the wheat!
    But I did set upon a path to determine what was true in order to be closer aligned and thereby signify my allegiance.

    My faith since than time has been in revelation, in philosophical ascension to the thinking, the mind of Christ via intake of Bible doctrine.

    As stated before, I've not encountered anything in life which would contradict the mindset I've been immersed in over the course of the ensuing 40+ years.
    Any challenges to it have been thoughtfully considered--- so thoughtfully, at one point, I rejected the Bible as authoritative (albeit based on shoddy research and analysis on my part, somewhat masquerading as intellectualism).
    After repeated acidic tests, I concluded the Bible to be trustworthy and once again pursued this path.

    I still consider challenges, but have found they all follow a similar trajectory, use the same ingredients, produce the same rotten fruit: no fruit at all.

    It's tough to offer an analogy which hits all of the points, but one that approaches it is music: there is a melody, harmony, tempo with which one can find accord. All else produces displeasure.
  4. Standard memberblack beetle
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    17 Oct '14 06:59
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    I have no "faith" so I cannot answer.
    My wife says it's just a gut-feeling she cannot explain.
    Some say it's the Bible/Koran/LordoftheRings

    What is your personal basis for your faith?

    NOTE: Please NO DISCUSSION or PUT DOWNS or ARGUING.
    All honest answers are correct.
    Methinks Faith becomes an issue when there is absence of Vision –when you see, there is no need for faith: if I tell you I hold a ring in my closed palm, then the issue of faith arises, because you cannot see the ring on your own; but since I open my palm and you see it, there is no place for faith.
    So instead of faith, I use vision and knowledge in order to experience my truths😵
  5. Standard memberCalJust
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    17 Oct '14 10:00
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    It's tough to offer an analogy which hits all of the points, but one that approaches it is music: there is a melody, harmony, tempo with which one can find accord. All else produces displeasure.
    Great analogy - I love it!

    God is playing a tune through you; relax and enjoy the music.
  6. Subscribermoonbusonline
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    17 Oct '14 11:561 edit
    I don't have what any Christian would recognize as faith, but I do have conviction. "Conviction" in the sense that my life is informed by purpose. It is based on personal experiences, some of which go back as far as age 8 and some of which would, I think, be scientifically classified as paranormal (or visionary or demonic in other circles). These experiences led me to question and ultimately walk away from the religion of my parents and the society around me (which was predominately Protestant).

    EDIT: My sister, with whom I am very close, joined a Pentecostal Church (speaking in tongues)--so, a pretty wide spectrum in our family.
  7. Standard memberCalJust
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    17 Oct '14 13:16
    Originally posted by moonbus
    These experiences led me to question and ultimately walk away from the religion of my parents and the society around me (which was predominately Protestant). My sister, with whom I am very close, joined a Pentecostal Church (speaking in tongues)--so, a pretty wide spectrum in our family.
    It is quite amazing how many of us have had similar experiences - on the one hand a deep sense of the Spiritual, and on the other an equally deep rejection of organised religion.

    My spectrum is similar; I still speak in tongues privately, but you would never find me in a Pentecostal church. More likely, on a Buddhist Retreat!
  8. Subscribermoonbusonline
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    17 Oct '14 20:23
    Originally posted by CalJust
    It is quite amazing how many of us have had similar experiences - on the one hand a deep sense of the Spiritual, and on the other an equally deep rejection of organised religion.

    My spectrum is similar; I still speak in tongues privately, but you would never find me in a Pentecostal church. More likely, on a Buddhist Retreat!
    Modern man's predicament is that he must learn to get on without the consolation of churches. --Wittgenstein
  9. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    18 Oct '14 05:56
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Outwardly, prayerfully, I requested this personal creator to be made known to me.

    Within the span of a week, a bus came through the neighborhood signing kids up for Vacation Bible School.
    My faith since than time has been in revelation, in philosophical ascension to the thinking, the mind of Christ via intake of Bible doctrine.

    Thanks. We have had some robust debates in the past so I appreciate
    your thoughtful answer. Could I summarise your faith as being based
    on personal experience and reinforced by the bible?
  10. Standard memberCalJust
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    18 Oct '14 08:49
    Originally posted by moonbus
    Modern man's predicament is that he must learn to get on without the consolation of churches. --Wittgenstein
    I fully agree with that statement as it stands.

    But I would add that a part of that predicament is that he must personally find a worldview that touches his inner spirit and gives peace, amidst conflicting and competing models.

    If someone (maybe you?) is already at peace, without even realising, or accepting that you have a spirit, then clearly you have solved this predicament for yourself, and I salute you.
  11. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    18 Oct '14 09:06
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Forget the mumbo-jumbo.
    The authority of the Word of God means nothing to most people.
    Simple question: What is your faith based on?

    Your answer is akin to "my faith is based on my faith".
    Surely even you can do better than that!
    Some idiot gave a thumbs down to this simplification of my OP.

    Own up ...and explain! 😠
  12. Subscribermoonbusonline
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    18 Oct '14 10:112 edits
    Originally posted by CalJust
    I fully agree with that statement as it stands.

    But I would add that a part of that predicament is that he must personally find a worldview that touches his inner spirit and gives peace, amidst conflicting and competing models.

    If someone (maybe you?) is already at peace, without even realising, or accepting that you have a spirit, then clearly you have solved this predicament for yourself, and I salute you.
    For me the first crucial insight was that people are different and have different spiritual needs. All rivers may flow to the sea (eventually) but they don't all flow in the same bed to get there. Each person starts out from a different place and has unique lessons to learn here; no single religion addresses the total multifariousness of the conditions in which humans find themselves. Some find that what traditional religions have to offer is comforting and provides them reliable guidance to get to a better place than where they start from, whereas others find traditional organized religions (especially dogmatic ones) a mere hindrance, given where they are coming from.

    The second crucial insight for me was that if you deny either that some people need organized religions, or that some people don't--then you must ultimately embrace genocide as a legitimate means of saving souls. The logical conclusion of Absolute Truth is that saving peoples' eternal souls at the cost of their temporal bodies is not only acceptable, it is an Imperative (see what the Crusaders made of the statement: 'go out and make disciples of all men' ). That was the mentality which exterminated 'witches' in the middle ages and obliterated three civilization in the Americas, and the same mentality is tearing apart Iraq/Syria/Afghanistan today. I take it as axiomatic that killing people's bodies to save their souls is ethically untenable, so, 'diffrent strokes for diffrent folks' is the path I chose.

    I realize that 'finding a personal worldview' strikes some people as a license to all manner of pseudo-religious folly and they are dead sure I will make a mistake and find (or invent) a false one; to them, my reply is two-fold: a) if you don't trust yourself to find your own worldview (or philosophy or spiritual path or whatever you want to call it), then how can you trust yourself to choose the right organized church to join (whether the Catholic or the Pentecostal or the Coptic or the Druid or the latest doomsday-prophet's wacko sect or or or ....)? b) To the person who thinks I am sitting in darkness: just because you can't see where I am does not mean I can't.

    My sister, the Pentecostalist, once asked me, "Will I see you in heaven?" My answer was: "Yes, if your eyes are open."

    Live and let live.
  13. Joined
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    18 Oct '14 13:442 edits
    Originally posted by CalJust
    I fully agree with that statement as it stands.

    But I would add that a part of that predicament is that he must personally find a worldview that touches his inner spirit and gives peace, amidst conflicting and competing models.

    If someone (maybe you?) is already at peace, without even realising, or accepting that you have a spirit, then clearly you have solved this predicament for yourself, and I salute you.
    "But I would add that a part of that predicament is that he must..."

    Must he? Perhaps how it happens is of concern.

    Time to pull out my old Narada story, if you please.

    Short version:

    Narada seeks enlightenment.
    Vishnu steps in.
    They travel.
    Vishnu asks Narada to fetch him a drink of water.
    Narada goes, finds a happy life.
    The happiness is dashed...
    Go to “***” below for the ending.

    "What Took You So Long?"
    From What Took You So Long? An Assortment of Life's Everyday Ironies, Sheldon Kopp, photographs by Claire Flanders, Science and Behavior Books, Palo Alto, CA, 1979.
    Introduction
    We are all tempted to try to understand the seemingly senseless suffering that life provides for each of us. People have always searched for ways to overcome their helplessness. Long before Buddha was enlightened or Christ crucified and resurrected, ordinary men and women already struggled to free themselves from this wheel of sorrows, to reach a place beyond this vale of tears.
    In India, old, old stories still are told of a Hindu holy man named Narada who devoted his life to attaining the spiritual liberation of Nirvana. Tied to the slowly turning wheel of Samsara, he had been trapped too long in the unending cycle of birth, life, death, and rebirth. He wanted only to free himself from attachment to Maya, the illusion that is life, so that at last he might be released from the bondage of everyday existence.
    In seeking Nirvana, Narada chose Bhakti-Yoga as his personal path. He had set himself a difficult task, but there is no easy way to attain Nirvana. In order to find union with God, Narada went to live simply and alone on a mountaintop where he could devote himself to uninterrupted meditation on the Divine Being. After years of austere and reverent concentration, the holy man had attained so high a level of spiritual liberation that he invited the fond attention of one of the three aspects of the Universal Lord.
    And so it was that one day in that remote and barren hermitage, before the dedicated old man's eyes there appeared the object of his devotion, Vishnu, the Preserver and Sustainer of the Universe. Delighted with Narada's fulfillment of his many vows, Vishnu said to him: “I have come to grant you a boon. Ask of me whatever you wish and it will be yours.”
    Joyfully, Narada replied: “O Lord, if you are so pleased with me, there is one favor I would ask. I would like you to explain to me the secret of the power of Maya, the illusion by which at the same time you both reveal and conceal the nature of the universe.”
    Vishnu responded more gravely: “Good Narada, other holy men before you have asked to be granted that same boon. Believe me, it never works out very well. What would you do with comprehension of my Maya anyway? Why not ask for something else? You can have anything you like.”
    But Narada insisted that nothing would do but that he should come to learn the power of Maya so that he would forever after understand the secret of how attachment to illusion creates needless suffering.
    “Very well, then,” answered Vishnu, “have it your own way.” An ambiguous smile played along his beautifully curved lips. “Come with me to the place where you will learn the power of Maya.”
    Together they left the pleasant coolness of the sheltering hermitage roof, descended the steep wooded slope, and headed out beyond the valley. Under a mercilessly scorching sun, Vishnu led Narada across a barren stretch of desert. It was many hours before they came to a place of shade. Vishnu stretched out on a cool spot on the sand, saying: “It is here that you will learn the power of Maya.”
    Narada was about to sit at the Lord's feet to be instructed when Vishnu said: “I am so thirsty. Before we begin, I would like you to take this cup and go fetch me some cool water.”
    Always ready to serve his master, Narada took the empty cup and went off over a rise in search of water. Just beyond that dune, unexpectedly the holy man came upon a fertile valley. At the near edge of the abundantly cultivated fields was a small tree-shaded cottage. Beside it was a well. Delighted at his good fortune, Narada knocked at the cottage door to ask permission to fill his cup from the well.
    But the door was opened by a maiden so beautiful that the old man immediately became enthralled. Lost in the enchantment of her eyes, he stood there too dazed to remember why he had come to the cottage in the first place.
    But no matter. She seemed as taken with him as he with her. Inviting him to enter with a voice so compelling that he could not refuse, the maiden made him welcome. Introducing him to the rest of her family, she insisted that he stay for dinner. Though he had just arrived as a stranger, Narada soon felt as if he were at home among good and trusted friends. Easily transformed from unbidden visitor to house-guest, he stayed on as one comfortable day followed the next. Inevitably, the holy man and the maiden fell in love and after a time they married.
    Twelve years passed. When his wife's father died, Narada took over the farm. The crops were more abundant each season, and during those years three beautiful children were born to this loving couple. Narada had everything that anyone might want. This was the happiest time of his entire life.
    The twelfth year turned out to be a time of natural disasters. An extraordinarily violent rainy season resulted in flooding that destroyed the crops and swept away the thatched huts. One night the farm-hands fled. The next morning the torrents rose until even the high ground of Narada's own cottage had to be abandoned.
    Their youngest child perched on his shoulder, one hand supporting his wife while with the other he led his two older children, Narada waded out into the swirling thigh-high waters. Losing his footing in the slippery mud, he lurched forward, pitching the smallest child from his shoulder headlong into the swelling stream. In a desperate grab to try to save the baby, Narada released his hold on his wife and their other children. The baby was swept away in the rushing waters, and the others along with him.
    None could be saved. All were gone. How could it be? Narada had been the happiest of men. He had had a lovely wife and three wonderful children. Now all were drowned. He had become the most successful farmer in the whole valley, and now the crops were gone as were his friends and his home.


    ***

    Weeping in bewilderment and feeling more sorrow than he had experienced in all of his life, Narada stood dazedly midst the waters swirling up above his knees. Alone and devastated, he knew that everything and everyone he cared about were lost to him forever.
    And then all at once the swirling currents were gone. Looking down at the dry sand beneath his feet, Narada saw that the only water that remained filled a small cup that unaccountably appeared in his hand. He was startled to hear a familiar voice. Looking up, just ahead of him he saw Vishnu stretched out in a shady spot on this barren desert. Smiling serenely, Vishnu asked teasingly: “Sweet Narada, what took you so long?”
  14. Unknown Territories
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    18 Oct '14 14:54
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Thanks. We have had some robust debates in the past so I appreciate
    your thoughtful answer. Could I summarise your faith as being based
    on personal experience and reinforced by the bible?
    I hesitate to use the phrase "personal experience" if, for no other reason, it sounds so much like it's straining to confer visitation or physical immediacy.
    I've had none such experience.
    As I described it, I suppose the case could be made how my story is singular and therefore personal, but I wouldn't want to insinuate anything beyond that aspect.
    The agreement I detect in the world around me with the things I have learned, accepted has more to do with thought than anything else.
    Obviously thought is experienced, so I don't wish to quibble too fine a point, but my attempt is to clarify my 'experience' has been strictly revelation, as opposed to physical manifestations otherwise.
  15. Subscribermoonbusonline
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    18 Oct '14 15:331 edit
    "Narada seeks enlightenment.
    Vishnu steps in.
    They travel.
    Vishnu asks Narada to do something simple.
    Narada gets distracted by complications.
    His happiness is transient.
    Then he is enlightened. "

    Yes, the process matters.

    "Nothing you do will be of any importance, but it is very important that you do it." --Gandhi
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