On what do you base your faith?

Originally posted by moonbus
Hi Manny,

What I notice is that some people seem desperately to need an explanation for mysteries (such as why the universe exists), whereas other people are content to leave mysteries mysterious. In Buddhism, for example, whether the universe had a beginning is undefined. It does not matter to Buddhists whether there was a beginning, and if there was whe ...[text shortened]... al to the sort of person for whom mysteries must be explained (if only by a Yet Bigger Mystery).

Why should we accept a mystery when we have a perfectly logical and reasonable explanation for the existence of the universe and all life? The answers for us are recorded in the Holy Bible. There is an all powerful, eternal, and intelligent Being that specially created the whole system. Case closed.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I don't think I believe you. If you did not know about Matthew 24:7 and its apparent connection to the First World War, would you have less faith?
Would you even see the connection if you lacked faith?
Would you have faith in another religion if I showed you similar prophesy in another religious book?

But I do have that knowledge because I study the Bible. This is only one example of how the Bible proves it's truthfulness.
Faith, mine included, is based on what is evident as Hebrews 11:1 states.
The accumulation of facts of things foretold and done builds faith in what is yet not done but no doubt will be done.

Originally posted by roigam
There is a mountain of evidence.

That is why I asked for just one! 🙂

Originally posted by divegeester
Yes I think so*.

I've had some "experiences" and/or "events" which if I described them to you would mean little, but to me are strong indicators of something/someone intervening in my life. However I've never had a "road to Damascus" experience.

*assuming the meaning of "gut feeling" to be the broadest possible.

Edit: some of the Christians he ...[text shortened]... ut that I absolutely know god exists, but unfortunately I don't and I'm not going to make it up.

On the rare occasions when I've discussed religion in the real world all
the theists (Christians and a few Muslims) have said the same. I think its
an honest answer which cannot be argued against. Most of them do not
believe everything in the bible/Koran and none have had any "experience".

Once the reason to believe is out the way - more meaningful
(but still spirited) debate ensues!

Originally posted by roigam
The accumulation of facts of things foretold and done builds faith in what is yet not done but no doubt will be done.

Use the bible to prophecy one single thing and win yourself $1,000,000
from Mr Randi. You can give the cash to a church/charity of your choice.
Or keep it and spend it on wine, women and song (the rest you can waste).

"I've had some "experiences" and/or "events" which if I described them to you would mean little, but to me are strong indicators of something/someone intervening in my life."

I too have sometimes felt that. "Intervention" is good term--it intimates that we are not in complete control of our lives, without committing to any hocuspocus about who or what might be.

I expect that such "intimations of intervention" are necessarily of a very, perhaps even uniquely, personal character--otherwise they wouldn't have the curious power of changing a person's life.

What I find unconvincing (unmoving) about RJH's truth-based faith is its anonymity. It must mean something to him, I suppose, but there doesn't seem, to me anyway, to be any personal component in truth as such. "Intellect by itself moves nothing," as Aristotle said. One might as well write the truth on a wall and wait for the wall to be converted.

I suppose RJH would say that Jesus as personal savior is the bit where the individual person is directly addressed. But, as you say, "road to Damascus" presentiments are sparingly vouchsafed.

My mentor, Elizabeth Anscombe, once said that she did not believe that the accounts of Jesus's miracles--even supposing the accounts to be true, which a lot of people would dispute or doubt--are, by themselves, sufficient grounds for converting to Christianity. She converted to Christianity, so it must have been for other reasons, but I do not know what they were.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Why should we accept a mystery when we have a perfectly logical and reasonable explanation for the existence of the universe and all life? The answers for us are recorded in the Holy Bible. There is an all powerful, eternal, and intelligent Being that specially created the whole system. Case closed.

The only thing that is closed by that line of thought is your mind.

Originally posted by roigam
But I do have that knowledge because I study the Bible. This is only one example of how the Bible proves it's truthfulness.
Faith, mine included, is based on what is evident as Hebrews 11:1 states.
The accumulation of facts of things foretold and done builds faith in what is yet not done but no doubt will be done.

Romans 10:17 says, "Faith follows the thing heard."

Originally posted by roigam
Romans 10:17 says, "Faith follows the thing heard."

"Faith follows the thing heard" is totally meaningless.
Telling me what book, chapter and verse gives it no authority.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
"Faith follows the thing heard" is totally meaningless.
Telling me what book, chapter and verse gives it no authority.

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
(Romans 10:17 NASB)

Originally posted by RJHinds
Why should we accept a mystery when we have a perfectly logical and reasonable explanation for the existence of the universe and all life? The answers for us are recorded in the Holy Bible. There is an all powerful, eternal, and intelligent Being that specially created the whole system. Case closed.

You prove my previous point, that some people have a desperate need to
explain away one mystery by attributing it to an even greater one. This is neither logical nor reasonable, it is clutching at straws.

The appeal to the Bible as a reliable source of geological and astronomical information doesn't cut any mustard here. It isn't even a leap of faith; it's a leap of naiveté. The people who wrote the Bible believed the Earth was an immovable pancake at the center of the universe. They got it wrong about that, and if they could get it wrong about the astronomical location of the Earth and whether it moves through space, then they could have gotten it wrong about other matters, too. Such as Earth's age, how it came about, why it is here at all, and how it came to be populated.

Originally posted by RJHinds
[b]So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
(Romans 10:17 NASB)[/b]

even shouting doesn't make it more meaningful ...

Originally posted by wolfgang59
I will ignore all future contributions from you
on this thread and I hope others do the same.

Why are "putting down" Bobby for giving you an honest answer? Why are you violating the terms of your own thread?

The Word of God, or Jesus Christ, is the basis of faith. In fact it is the very faith of Jesus Christ that is the foundation of truth.

Doesn't fit your paradigm does it?

Originally posted by josephw
The Word of God, or Jesus Christ, is the basis of faith. In fact it is the very faith of Jesus Christ that is the foundation of truth.

Doesn't fit your paradigm does it?

I don't think anyone, including atheists, would doubt that the Word of God would be an adequate basis for faith.

The questions remain, however, how mortals can know: a) that there is a God, b) that the purported Word of God is really from God and is not merely transcendental ventriloquism, and c) that the Word has been correctly transmitted, translated, and rightly understood--i.e., that the purported words are identical (at least in meaning, if not in actual diction) to God's meaning. Repeatedly quoting the purported Word of God (from the Bible or the Koran or any other source) does not settle these questions.

"it is the very faith of Jesus Christ that is the foundation of truth." Surely you do not mean that Jesus INVENTED truth, that there was no such thing as truth prior to Jesus. I can attach no meaning to your statement. Please clarify.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Use the bible to prophecy one single thing and win yourself $1,000,000
from Mr Randi. You can give the cash to a church/charity of your choice.
Or keep it and spend it on wine, women and song (the rest you can waste).

"Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." -- Matthew 4:7, KJV. See Deuteronomy 6:16.

Even falsely. Randi has no intention of ever paying this money.