On what do you base your faith?

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Once the reason to believe is out the way - more meaningful
(but still spirited) debate ensues!

So now the real reason for this thread is out. And the reason I declined to participate.

You're not interested in what anyone bases their faith on. You never were, as can be determined from your extremely antagonistic treatment of GB on page 1.

"NOTE: Please NO DISCUSSION or PUT DOWNS or ARGUING.
All honest answers are correct."

GB took you at your word and look how you treated him.

Originally posted by Suzianne
"Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." -- Matthew 4:7, KJV. See Deuteronomy 6:16.

Even falsely. Randi has no intention of ever paying this money.

Please explain further as I don't understand what you are saying. Are you saying that nobody can honestly claim Randi's money because doing so would be tempting God? Are you saying that prophesy in the Bible can never be shown to be prophesy?

Originally posted by moonbus
I suppose RJH would say that Jesus as personal savior is the bit where the individual person is directly addressed. But, as you say, "road to Damascus" presentiments are sparingly vouchsafed.

My mentor, Elizabeth Anscombe, once said that she did not believe that the accounts of Jesus's miracles--even supposing the accounts to be true, which a lot of peopl ...[text shortened]... erted to Christianity, so it must have been for other reasons, but I do not know what they were.

As you said, they are extremely personal, and as such, they rarely have meaning to anyone else. And those who receive these "epiphanies" are those who are more open to them. Heavenly messages aren't going to come to those who have their phone "off the hook". As the Captain said in Cool Hand Luke, "Some men you just can't reach."

And it is the sum total of all of the testimony in the Gospels (as well as in Paul's writings) that lead men to faith, not any one anecdote or parable.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Please explain further as I don't understand what you are saying. Are you saying that nobody can honestly claim Randi's money because doing so would be tempting God? Are you saying that prophesy in the Bible can never be shown to be prophesy?

No, the falseness is in what Randi proposes. He will never accept anyone's "proof". And no, I'm not saying that "prophecy in the Bible can never shown to be prophecy". I'm saying that non-believers will never accept that it IS prophecy. As one small example, look at all the atheists here who refuse to believe or even be shown the many prophecies in Isaiah concerning Jesus' birth.

I'm saying that the man refuses to believe and no amount of "proof" will be proof to him. So he never had any intention of paying the money. He will simply deny anything anyone puts forth to him.

Originally posted by Suzianne
No, the falseness is in what Randi proposes. He will never accept anyone's "proof".

It is my understanding that he has the conditions set down very clearly and if you meet those conditions then he is required to accept the claim.

As one small example, look at all the atheists here who refuse to believe or even be shown the many prophecies in Isaiah concerning Jesus' birth.
Of course not, because that isn't prophesy. Prophesy requires that the interpreter does not know the results of the thing he is predicting prior to making the interpretation. What is more, we all know full well that the Gospel writers had read Isiah and were well aware of its contents when writing the Gospels.

I'm saying that the man refuses to believe and no amount of "proof" will be proof to him. So he never had any intention of paying the money. He will simply deny anything anyone puts forth to him.
As I said above, Randi has set out his requirements quite clearly and his denial would be of no avail if you are able to meet his requirements. I am fairly sure that you cannot meet his requirements.

Get the full rules here:
http://web.randi.org/the-million-dollar-challenge.html

Methods for testing claims are negotiated between the parties before doing the challenge. So if you Suzianne can think of a way to scientifically verify a prophesy, then you may propose the method. If it is agreed that it is a valid method prior to taking the challenge and you then pass the test, you get the money.

Originally posted by Suzianne
As you said, they are extremely personal, and as such, they rarely have meaning to anyone else. And those who receive these "epiphanies" are those who are more open to them. Heavenly messages aren't going to come to those who have their phone "off the hook". As the Captain said in Cool Hand Luke, "Some men you just can't reach."

And it is the s ...[text shortened]... Gospels (as well as in Paul's writings) that lead men to faith, not any one anecdote or parable.

It seems to me that we have two broad categories here: 1) those for whom faith (conviction, purpose in life, whatever one cares to call it) is based on direct experience (gut feeling, visionary experience, epiphanies, etc., profound or profane), and 2) those for whom faith is based on belief in a set of truths (or what they take to be truths).

The one need not exclude the other, but it would seem that for any given person, one or the other is likely to predominate.

There may possibly be a third category: those for whom the truth believed was at some time in the past a direct experience for someone else: e.g., Paul’s epiphany was a direct experience for him, but for all succeeding generations, it can only be accessible as something recounted and necessarily removed in time and space. This then becomes a ‘truth’ for succeeding generations to believe in.

Originally posted by moonbus
I don't think anyone, including atheists, would doubt that the Word of God would be an adequate basis for faith.

The questions remain, however, how mortals can know: a) that there is a God, b) that the purported Word of God is really from God and is not merely transcendental ventriloquism, and c) that the Word has been correctly transmitted, translated, a ...[text shortened]... o such thing as truth prior to Jesus. I can attach no meaning to your statement. Please clarify.

"Surely you do not mean that Jesus INVENTED truth, that there was no such thing as truth prior to Jesus."

Surely you're not so naive? Jesus is the truth. Everyone knows that!

"I can attach no meaning to your statement."

Your choice.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I'm saying that non-believers will never accept that it IS prophecy. As one small example, look at all the atheists here who refuse to believe or even be shown the many prophecies in Isaiah concerning Jesus' birth.
Of course not, because that isn't prophesy. Prophesy requires that the interpreter does not know the results of the thing he is predicti ...[text shortened]... that the Gospel writers had read Isiah and were well aware of its contents when writing the Gospels.

Well, lookie here. Maybe I just made a prophecy and didn't realize it.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Use the bible to prophecy one single thing and win yourself $1,000,000
from Mr Randi. You can give the cash to a church/charity of your choice.
Or keep it and spend it on wine, women and song (the rest you can waste).

Prove it to yourself and save your money.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Use the bible to prophecy one single thing and win yourself $1,000,000
from Mr Randi. You can give the cash to a church/charity of your choice.
Or keep it and spend it on wine, women and song (the rest you can waste).

You are the fulfillment of Bible prophecy!!!
2 Peter 3:3 says, "First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires. And saying: "Where is this promised presence of his?"

Originally posted by roigam
You are the fulfillment of Bible prophecy!!!
2 Peter 3:3 says, "First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires. And saying: "Where is this promised presence of his?"

Sorry, I don't mean you personally. I mean ridiculers as a group are a fulfillment of 2 Peter 3:3/

Originally posted by roigam
Sorry, I don't mean you personally. I mean ridiculers as a group are a fulfillment of 2 Peter 3:3/

There's a regular poster here ~ called robbie carrobie ~ who is forever trying to ridicule other posters ~ Christians in particular. He often cites his religious group's doctrines and certainly seems to "proceed according to [his] own [spiritual] desires".. Might his ridicule be a sign of the "last days" as you claim is prophesized by the Bible?

Originally posted by Suzianne
And the reason I declined to participate.

.

I wish ......

Originally posted by Suzianne

GB took you at your word and look how you treated him.

He did not give an honest answer.