10 Nov 08
Originally posted by Rajk999You see everything in black and white and extremes. If I am strapped to a good parachute I am assured that I will not die , that doesn't mean that I cannot unhook myself and die ,but the assurance is still there is it not?
You are well aware of my take on 'OSAS' doctrine. which I have already discussed at length with several of your 'friends' on this site.
Its the same story. You start off saying that its true and that NOBODY can loose their salvation and eventually change your minds.. ie its not 100%. In fact, if questioned properly youall will recant totally and agree that ...[text shortened]... nded false witnesses on the witness stand. Any decent laywer will make mince-meat of youall.
We can be totally assured that God will not let us down , the question is will we let ourselves down.
You are right in saying that only Christ knows to an extent , but I also think that the individual knows as well.
Your problem is that you associate assurance with complacency.
10 Nov 08
Originally posted by Rajk999Do you believe that it is only Christ who knows who is saved?
You are well aware of my take on 'OSAS' doctrine. which I have already discussed at length with several of your 'friends' on this site.
Its the same story. You start off saying that its true and that NOBODY can loose their salvation and eventually change your minds.. ie its not 100%. In fact, if questioned properly youall will recant totally and agree that ...[text shortened]... nded false witnesses on the witness stand. Any decent laywer will make mince-meat of youall.
If so , if he knew that you were saved , why do you think he might not tell you?
10 Nov 08
1 edit
Originally posted by knightmeisterChrist knows and the individual knows .. THANK YOU.
...You are right in saying that only Christ knows to an extent , but I also think that the individual knows as well. ....
OK ?
How can YOU know?
How can YOU know if Miss X is saved?
You cannot. You cannot. You cannot.
You cannot.
You cannot.
You cannot.
You cannot.
You cannot.
You cannot.
You cannot.
Get it ?
Boy ... you people are DUMB.
YOU CANNOT KNOW IF SOMEONE ELSE IS SAVED !!!
11 Nov 08
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI guess the whole question is, do we choose God or does he choose us? I think from scripture arguements can be made for both. As for myself, I believe we have the free will to chose, however, God knows this before hand and simply picks those who he knows would desire him. Having said that, I think in the case of Judas Christ knew before hand that he would ultimatly reject him, however, he still could be used in his ultimate plan to help save those who might one day desire to follow him.
actually i do not think that you are getting the point, which is, that God withdrew his spirit, especially in the case of Saul, whether they had a different agenda is neither here nor there, nor can be inferred from the scriptures. actually Judas was 'chosen', by Christ, not 'hooked up', and while your scenario is imaginative it elements can hardly ...[text shortened]... consequences for Christ. i do not mean to be rude, but have you actually read the account?
Of course, I am guessing as to what was going on in the mind of Judas but my gut feeling is that he did not want Christ to be sent to the cross. I think perhaps he made some sort of a deal with those that sought Jesus that involved them promising that they would not kill him. If not, why then do you think he hanged himself after he saw what happened to Christ?
11 Nov 08
Originally posted by whodeyFor most of my life, I had always assumed the former to be the case, until I started attending a Lutheran church 4 years ago. It is their doctrine, quite definitively, that Christ chooses us. It has taken a while for me to adapt to this new paradigm, but I can see the logic in it.
[b]I guess the whole question is, do we choose God or does he choose us?
12 Nov 08
Originally posted by epiphinehasSo, even while the hypothetical individual P was saying, 'I'm saved. I believe,' and demonstrated
It is possible the hypothetical individual in question was never a genuine part of the body of Christ to begin with.
this for five years such that anyone of the flock was confident that P was saved, it's possible he
wasn't saved?
What if individual Q professed at 20, was tempted at the age of 70 and lived the next five years
in a hedonistic, selfish, godless way? What of him?
What if individual R professed at 20, was tempted at the age of 25, cursed God, spat on the Bible,
renounced his faith, and then got hit by a bus?
Nemesio
12 Nov 08
3 edits
"But when the kindness and love to man of our Savior God appeared, not out of works of righteousness which we did but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of the regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:4,5)
How interesting that it was "not out of works of righteousness which we did" which formed the basis for God saving the sinner.
All those who believe that eternal redemption in Christ can be lost once one is redeemed invariably think that it WAS out of righteous works the sinner did that was the basis of God saving them from eternal perdition.
My concern for these folks is - "Once Ignorant Always Ignorant ???"
12 Nov 08
4 edits
Originally posted by jaywillmy concern is that the preceding verse states - to speak injuriously of no one, not to be belligerent, to be reasonable, exhibiting all mildness toward all men. For even we were once senseless, disobedient, being misled, being slaves to various desires and pleasures, carrying on in badness and envy, abhorrent, hating one another,
[b]
"But when the kindness and love to man of our Savior God appeared, not out of works of righteousness which we did but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of the regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:4,5)
How interesting that it was "not out of works of righteousness which we did" which formed the ...[text shortened]... erdition.
My concern for these folks is - "Once Ignorant Always Ignorant ???" [/b]
but naturally of course these works don't really matter, they are not the defining mark of a Christan? after all we are recipients of Holy Spirit, now which one of the 'fruits' of holy spirit gives us license to state that others are ignorant, perhaps its love, joy, maybe peace, could be kindness, perhaps goodness, i know its mildness, faith, self control, long suffering etc etc mmmm, recipients of Holy Spirit, mmmmm, once saved always saved....i don't think so.
in fact black beetle a professed atheist has displayed more of these qualities than many Christians, myself included!
yes perhaps we are saved through faith, however, unless our faith shows evidence of works as its natural consequence, it is as James states, like a body without animation, for quite clearly, faith without works is dead!
12 Nov 08
1 edit
Originally posted by NemesioFlipping this around [a bit of a tangent here] - what of person S who spends the first 75 years of his life cheating on and divorcing his wives, banging hookers, smoking crack, and cheating people out of their money, but then repents and lives the last 2 years of his life as a good christian? Does he get saved?
So, even while the hypothetical individual P was saying, 'I'm saved. I believe,' and demonstrated
this for five years such that anyone of the flock was confident that P was saved, it's possible he
wasn't saved?
What if individual Q professed at 20, was tempted at the age of 70 and lived the next five years
in a hedonistic, selfish, godless way? What ...[text shortened]... cursed God, spat on the Bible,
renounced his faith, and then got hit by a bus?
Nemesio
It always seemed weird to me in my christian days that the backslider could be considered 'not ever really saved' and yet some guy who spent his whole life as a morally bankrupt unbeliever could be accepted just because he happened to finish life on a good note.
12 Nov 08
2 edits
Originally posted by SwissGambitLooking at the teachings of Jesus, this scenario is logical. Jesus taught that one is to become righteous, i.e. the embodiment of truth, love, compassion, justice, etc. Jesus taught that righteousness, where one cannot continue to sin, is required for "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation". A person who "backslides" was never truly righteous, but merely acting the part, and was never "saved". However, a person who becomes righteous, even after decades of sin, is "saved".
Flipping this around [a bit of a tangent here] - what of person S who spends the first 75 years of his life cheating on and divorcing his wives, banging hookers, smoking crack, and cheating people out of their money, but then repents and lives the last 2 years of his life as a good christian? Does he get saved?
It always seemed weird to me in my chris pt unbeliever could be accepted just because he happened to finish life on a good note.
As for what Christianity teaches...it's more than a bit clumsy.